Live data from Hacker News

FCC proposes to increase minimum broadband speeds to 100 Mbps

fcc.gov

81–90 of 296 posts

Re: FCC proposes to increase minimum broadband speeds to 100 Mbps

#81

The amount of bandwidth you need depends on the number of people. 50Mb or 25Mb is probably fine for 1 person. As long as it can do 4k, and zoom calls, it's fine for most people. 100Mb might not be enough for six people, who might need to download, zoom, game, and stream all at once.

I think you're somewhat overestimating the amount of bandwidth used by those services. TO watch Netflix in 4k, you only need 15Mbps, zoom uses about half of that for a decent connection and will downgrade nicely.

> TO watch Netflix in 4k, you only need 15Mbps

So on a 25 Mbps connection that was previously considered broadband, two people in a household can't do that at the same time.

Re: FCC proposes to increase minimum broadband speeds to 100 Mbps

#82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is a modern equivalent of "640K of memory should be enough for anyone." If you have a 4 bit CPU, it probably is enough memory for anyone! I think we're focusing on the wrong thing. Download bandwidth is fine; stability, latency, and to some extent upload bandwidth are not. I think a forum of tech literate people should understand the importance of optimizing for the right thing.

But bandwidth does matter when you have multiple devices. On a typical day it is not uncommon for multiple video calls to be going on at the same time in my apt. My roommate and I used to schedule our meetings around one another so that we could have a call with our respective advisors that wasn't choppy. We'd also make sure not to be streaming video at these times either. Bandwidth is 100% part of the problem. Now I…

> On a typical day it is not uncommon for multiple video calls to be going on at the same time in my apt. My roommate and I used to schedule our meetings around one another so that we could have a call with our respective advisors that wasn't choppy. We'd also make sure not to be streaming video at these times either. Bandwidth is 100% part of the problem.

I don't know your situation, but fwiw, if a friend was having this problem and they came to me for help, I would assume it was their wifi network.

Up until a few years ago, I only had 3 down / 1 up in my apartment. My building had FIOS, but it was much more expensive than my absolutely dirt cheap cable connection. The internet was stable and reliable, and Facetime calls went fine. I did live alone, and large downloads were a massive pain, but 3 Mbps is much slower than the speeds we're discussing.

Re: FCC proposes to increase minimum broadband speeds to 100 Mbps

#83
post #76
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As far as I have heard, they could choose to use N out of M channels for either upload or download and they are choosing to keep it the way it is. Probably they need to keep it that way for other reasons (their own cable-TV signal goes through it). But I know nothing about the electronics/signal-processing involved, so I could be totally wrong.

Most of the TV channels are shit, so it makes no sense to reserve so many channels for them, especially as people are cutting TV service and switching to streaming.

That's why Switched Digital Video exists.

Re: FCC proposes to increase minimum broadband speeds to 100 Mbps

#84

The amount of bandwidth you need depends on the number of people. 50Mb or 25Mb is probably fine for 1 person. As long as it can do 4k, and zoom calls, it's fine for most people. 100Mb might not be enough for six people, who might need to download, zoom, game, and stream all at once.

I think you're somewhat overestimating the amount of bandwidth used by those services. TO watch Netflix in 4k, you only need 15Mbps, zoom uses about half of that for a decent connection and will downgrade nicely.

I agree with you, a lot of these services aren't as high bandwidth as people imagine but I will note that part of the reason is because that's what people routinely have access to. Netflix or whoever could be pushing higher bitrate content or potentially exploring other more bandwidth intensive ideas if people had access.

Re: FCC proposes to increase minimum broadband speeds to 100 Mbps

#85
post #52

Presumably, they'll be measuring by taking the minimum available speed (up or down) over 5 minute windows, on a quarterly basis, and disqualifying anyone with > 1 second latencies for one of those windows, right? Yeah. Didn't think so. Politicians gotta politic, I guess. Edit: At least I'll have decent speeds at 4:38AM now...

The FCC's Measuring Broadband America program did pretty much what you're suggesting but it got defunded during the previous administration.

Re: FCC proposes to increase minimum broadband speeds to 100 Mbps

#86
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Downspeed hardly matters. It's been plenty for decades. Until the power company ran fiber earlier this year, the only wired option here was 3Mbps DSL from AT&T. AT&T buried fiber all over the area (including in front of my house) years ago, but it sits there unused.

My parents live 4 miles from the nearest city in a rural area. Someone paid for a fiber line and my parents got a free install because it crossed the property. Before this they were using a microwave antenna and getting 10 megabit.

These days, fixed wireless mmwave antennas can do 300-1Gbps symmetrical for about $100 per antenna.

Re: FCC proposes to increase minimum broadband speeds to 100 Mbps

#87
post #34
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was curious about the upload issue recently and learned that it is because of limitations of the old cable infrastructure. You presumably receive your internet over coax (which can still provide really good download speeds, I was surprised when my gigabit internet package came and it only had a coax port instead of fiber). Cable TV is pretty much all downloads, with only a small portion of the bandwidth reserved fo…

As far as I have heard, they could choose to use N out of M channels for either upload or download and they are choosing to keep it the way it is. Probably they need to keep it that way for other reasons (their own cable-TV signal goes through it). But I know nothing about the electronics/signal-processing involved, so I could be totally wrong.

The future and the present for some people is basically delivering everything over a singular pipe as packets just routed to different devices.

For comparison look at voice and data on cell phones once strictly different radios and now commonly handled as voice over LTE or VOLTE

Re: FCC proposes to increase minimum broadband speeds to 100 Mbps

#88
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What if you have a family with four kids, all of whom need to engage in remote learning on occasion? 20Mbps is also entirely noticeable for bulk downloads, whether it's a Steam download or a Windows update. By going from 20 -> 100 Mbps, you save nearly an hour on a 10GB download (1h6m -> 13m).

In the unlikely scenario where all four children are simultaneously using the internet full-throttle, they're still each getting 5 Mbps down, which Netflix says is sufficient for 1080p video. Upload speeds could start to be a problem though, and IMO that's a much more significant issue. > 20Mbps is also entirely noticeable for bulk downloads It is, but downloading Steam games quickly is not a critical need. It can be…

5 Mbps down is certainly more than adequate for a single 1080p stream that's been compressed ahead of time. When you have to stitch together multiple real-time streams as in a classroom environment, then the actual numbers can vary significantly.

If your kids are forced into remote learning, and you're working from home, then we might be talking more like 3-4 Mbps per person if your network is split 5 or 6 ways. And unless you're on a business internet plan, the only guarantee you have when you buy a 20Mbps plan is that your ISP will throttle you to that rate if you exceed it.

To be clear: I think most people would be happy if they could get a guarantee of 50 Mbps download speeds. But the fact of the matter is that during peak hours, if you pay for higher download speeds, you get a higher fraction of the available spectrum. Your big-name cable companies can have oversubscription rates of 100x or more. That doesn't translate to only getting 5Mbps out of your 500Mbps connection at peak, but you will see _some_ contention. If you're paying for 20Mbps under the assumption that you'll only need 18Mbps at peak, you'll be frustrated when you end up only getting 15Mbps and all the video calls stutter / cut out intermittently.

Re: FCC proposes to increase minimum broadband speeds to 100 Mbps

#89

I'd rather have two providers that offers 25Mbps than one that offers 100Mbps. I don't need 100, or even 50. But Comcast has been jacking up their prices, along with increasing the minimum speed available, for years. They respond to government regulations like these. I'm now paying 2x what I used to (from $25 to $50/mo), and getting 2x the speed. But I don't want to be forced to buy 2x the speed (or even faster, as t…

> I would much rather have the govt provide incentives for there to be more than one provider. In the UK, ISPs are forced to lease their last-mile lines to anyone who wants to provide internet service. This results in a decent amount of competition.

ISP customer service is never fun, but my problem is not really with who picks up the phone. It's with the physical network that's provisioned for my neighborhood and the way it's maintained. The lessee has no more power over this than I do, only now I can get stuck in customer-service hell between two different companies instead of two different departments.

Re: FCC proposes to increase minimum broadband speeds to 100 Mbps

#90
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I pay 15$ for 500/300 megabit. It's a monopoly that gouges your prices, not competition or mandated high speeds.

Yeah, and if they don't fix the monopoly (this rule doesn't), then it will only exacerbate the current conditions (monopoly gouging us).

If you have a monopoly, they can arbitrarily raise their prices without increasing the speed at all. From the situation you described in another post, it sounds as if they were going to raise your bill no matter what, and pushing you to a higher speed tier was just the rationale they gave. At some point it becomes more expensive for them to maintain old equipment than to replace it, and if the replacement equipment has much higher rated speeds, they're not saving anything by continuing the lower speed plan. To the contrary, a lower bill just means a lower profit margin.

Consider: Let's pretend that broadband speed worked like a typical commodity so that the producer cost for 10Mbps was roughly ~10x as 1Mbps. And let's say your bill for 10Mbps was $30 (producer cost $20). Would they offer a 1Mbps plan for $3 (producer cost $2)? No, because they would be cannibalizing their own customers. They don't want $1/month profit per customer, they want $10+/month profit customers. And it real life, they have even less incentive to offer low speeds. If gigabit plans are on the table, there's virtually no difference in the maintenance cost for the lower end consumers using 1Mbps, 10Mbps or 100Mbps. It's really only the top few percent of customers who use enough bandwidth to affect QOS. Hence, almost all of these companies offer just a few pricing tiers, the top tier for high bandwidth whales, the middle tier for almost everybody else, and a bottom tier for the super-budget conscious (and also to make the middle tier users feel like they are paying for a premium service.) As the top tier offering gets ratcheted up by technology, so will other tiers. And so will your bill, if you're suffering under a monopoly.

Post reply on HN