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The Incredibly Stupid One

lowellmilkencenter.org

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Re: The Incredibly Stupid One

#31

Post by dvt »

vba616 wrote: post #30
dvt wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I live in Santa Monica and often walk past the Lowell Milken Family Foundation (which is close to the posh downtown). I always kind of smile and think about the story of how the Milken Family completely reinvented itself. Michael Milken, for context, was paid the highest yearly salary in the history of the world (~250M in one of his highest years if I remember correctly). He served 2 years in prison, his fine was 600…

>How many lives were destroyed (or at least harmed) by hustling junk bonds? I'm not familiar with the context of what Michael Milken did (although he's famous enough I know the name), but your (rhetorical?) question sounds very strange to me. An omniscient and omnipotent being that knew the right amount of junk bonds to issue could probably answer how many lives were destroyed or harmed by creating the wrong amount.…

> and it sounds rhetorical

It's rhetorical: the answer is, given how much money he made, a lot.

> But junk bonds aren't inherently useless or defective

This seems a bit disingenuous, as they have, by definition, a very high risk of defaulting. He also manipulated stocks[1], which, again, is technically a victimless crime (but is it really?).

[1] https://www.sec.gov/comments/s7-08-09/s70809-4614.pdf

Re: The Incredibly Stupid One

#32

Post by [deleted] »

vba616 wrote: post #30
dvt wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I live in Santa Monica and often walk past the Lowell Milken Family Foundation (which is close to the posh downtown). I always kind of smile and think about the story of how the Milken Family completely reinvented itself. Michael Milken, for context, was paid the highest yearly salary in the history of the world (~250M in one of his highest years if I remember correctly). He served 2 years in prison, his fine was 600…

>How many lives were destroyed (or at least harmed) by hustling junk bonds? I'm not familiar with the context of what Michael Milken did (although he's famous enough I know the name), but your (rhetorical?) question sounds very strange to me. An omniscient and omnipotent being that knew the right amount of junk bonds to issue could probably answer how many lives were destroyed or harmed by creating the wrong amount.…

[deleted]

Re: The Incredibly Stupid One

#33

Post by tasty_freeze »

vorpalhex wrote: post #25
dvt wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I live in Santa Monica and often walk past the Lowell Milken Family Foundation (which is close to the posh downtown). I always kind of smile and think about the story of how the Milken Family completely reinvented itself. Michael Milken, for context, was paid the highest yearly salary in the history of the world (~250M in one of his highest years if I remember correctly). He served 2 years in prison, his fine was 600…

At some point punishment has to end and you move forward in life. The justice system would be a lot more fair if this was applied equally.

> At some point punishment has to end and you move forward in life. The justice system would be a lot more fair if this was applied equally.

I completely agree, but if I am reading your statement right, our conclusions are 180 degrees apart. It seems you are saying it is unfair that some people are forgiven and others aren't and that Milken is getting unjustly punished.

My take is there are hundreds of thousands (if not millions) of people who served more than 2 years for petty offenses, things like selling dime bags of weed. Their convictions follow them for life and make future gainful employment extremely difficult. Yet a highly educated, white collar guy can steal hundreds of millions and serve two years in a luxury prison, and then coast the rest of his life on his ill-gotten gains. That is no justice at all, and I don't feel the least bit sorry for hoping that Milken's reputation never recovers.

Re: The Incredibly Stupid One

#34

Post by vba616 »

dvt wrote: post #31
vba616 wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>How many lives were destroyed (or at least harmed) by hustling junk bonds? I'm not familiar with the context of what Michael Milken did (although he's famous enough I know the name), but your (rhetorical?) question sounds very strange to me. An omniscient and omnipotent being that knew the right amount of junk bonds to issue could probably answer how many lives were destroyed or harmed by creating the wrong amount.…

> and it sounds rhetorical It's rhetorical: the answer is, given how much money he made, a lot . > But junk bonds aren't inherently useless or defective This seems a bit disingenuous, as they have, by definition, a very high risk of defaulting. He also manipulated stocks[1], which, again, is technically a victimless crime (but is it really?). [1] https://www.sec.gov/comments/s7-08-09/s70809-4614.pdf

>This seems a bit disingenuous, as they have, by definition, a very high risk of defaulting

I'm aware junk bonds have a relatively high expected risk of default and I'm not being disingenuous.

Please assume that I'm sincere, as it's required by the HN guidelines, and also, I am.

I didn't say anything is a victimless crime or say victimless crimes are ok (or acts that have victims are always wrong). So let's not go on that tangent for now. Or talk about details about Milken, which are beyond the scope of my previous comment.

So: I infer you think high risk loans are bad, like poisoned milk. I don't have a problem with that concept, really. But there must be a threshold, right? And I have never heard of anyone seriously putting that threshold precisely at the word "junk". As far as I know, "junk" is a term of art, that is opposed to "investment grade".

Re: The Incredibly Stupid One

#35

Post by dvt »

vba616 wrote: post #34
dvt wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> and it sounds rhetorical It's rhetorical: the answer is, given how much money he made, a lot . > But junk bonds aren't inherently useless or defective This seems a bit disingenuous, as they have, by definition, a very high risk of defaulting. He also manipulated stocks[1], which, again, is technically a victimless crime (but is it really?). [1] https://www.sec.gov/comments/s7-08-09/s70809-4614.pdf

>This seems a bit disingenuous, as they have, by definition, a very high risk of defaulting I'm aware junk bonds have a relatively high expected risk of default and I'm not being disingenuous. Please assume that I'm sincere, as it's required by the HN guidelines, and also, I am. I didn't say anything is a victimless crime or say victimless crimes are ok (or acts that have victims are always wrong). So let's not go on…

Okay, maybe we're just speaking past each other. My point is pretty simple, and you're right that I should not have brought up victimless crimes, etc.

I'm just trying to say: here's some rich guy that did bad stuff, went to jail, and received the equivalent of a slap on the wrist, essentially rebranded his image, and is now back at the adults' table as a philanthropist, even though his wealth is funded by his past illegal/unethical endeavors. And to make things more bizarre, everyone is totally playing along. Isn't that kind of funny?

Re: The Incredibly Stupid One

#36

Post by tasty_freeze »

beachy wrote: post #5
DisjointedHunt wrote: post #4

A brave soldier, doing right by his country, which was led into fighting villagers half way around the world in incredibly tough scenarios by asshole politicians.

The Vietnam war (or the American war as I was corrected in a bar in Hanoi) was the epitome of unintended escalation. One of the early escalators was JFK, who was simultaneously extremely wary of escalation, and is not someone who most people think of as an asshole politician. Your point has some heft but it's a simplistic take.

The Errol Morris documentary "The Fog Of War" about Robert McNamara is amazing. Even though McNamara was in his 80s when it was filmed, his mind was still razor sharp. McNamara was highly self-reflective and was not someone to whitewash history, even his own.

The documentary covers various phases of McNamara's career, including his contribution to the Tokyo firebombing raids in WWII, and a short bit about his work at Ford Motor Company between the wars, but the Vietnam war part was the biggest section.

Re: The Incredibly Stupid One

#37

Post by phonon »

dvt wrote: post #22
tedheath123 wrote: post #11

Irrelevant to the content of the article, but worth pointing out that this project is funded by the proceeds of crimes committed at Drexel Burnham in the 80s. Michael Milken and his brother Lowell undoubtedly do good through their philanthrophy, but the cynic in me suspects that it is primarily an attempt to rehabilate their image and is treated as a business expense. Maybe it doesn't matter if you do good for the wr…

I live in Santa Monica and often walk past the Lowell Milken Family Foundation (which is close to the posh downtown). I always kind of smile and think about the story of how the Milken Family completely reinvented itself. Michael Milken, for context, was paid the highest yearly salary in the history of the world (~250M in one of his highest years if I remember correctly). He served 2 years in prison, his fine was 600…

> How many lives were destroyed (or at least harmed) by hustling junk bonds?

Zero? What evidence do you have otherwise? None of his crimes were related to the issuance of high yield bonds. It's not like penny stocks being pushed from a boiler room...he helped create a market for higher risk, higher yield bonds. Historically, they have done pretty well in a portfolio.

Re: The Incredibly Stupid One

#38

Post by RobRivera »

dvt wrote: post #31
vba616 wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>How many lives were destroyed (or at least harmed) by hustling junk bonds? I'm not familiar with the context of what Michael Milken did (although he's famous enough I know the name), but your (rhetorical?) question sounds very strange to me. An omniscient and omnipotent being that knew the right amount of junk bonds to issue could probably answer how many lives were destroyed or harmed by creating the wrong amount.…

> and it sounds rhetorical It's rhetorical: the answer is, given how much money he made, a lot . > But junk bonds aren't inherently useless or defective This seems a bit disingenuous, as they have, by definition, a very high risk of defaulting. He also manipulated stocks[1], which, again, is technically a victimless crime (but is it really?). [1] https://www.sec.gov/comments/s7-08-09/s70809-4614.pdf

manipulation of stock is far from a victimless crime

Re: The Incredibly Stupid One

#39

Post by lern_too_spel »

chasil wrote: post #16
beachy wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Vietnam war (or the American war as I was corrected in a bar in Hanoi) was the epitome of unintended escalation. One of the early escalators was JFK, who was simultaneously extremely wary of escalation, and is not someone who most people think of as an asshole politician. Your point has some heft but it's a simplistic take.

I have often wondered if, had the Watergate break-in not been discovered or reported, South Vietnam might yet exist, and if they would rival South Korea in their technological accomplishments.

South Vietnam never had a functioning government.

Re: The Incredibly Stupid One

#40

Post by Stratoscope »

This reminds me of Jeremiah Denton, a POW in that same war who was interviewed on TV to explain that the prisoners were being treated humanely. As he gave the verbal answers his captors expected, he blinked his eyes in Morse Code:

  –  –––  •–•  –  ••–  •–•  •
  T   O    R   T   U    R   E
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rufnWLVQcKg

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeremiah_Denton

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morse_code

Epilog: A few years ago, someone gave me a Fourth of July T-shirt. Made in Vietnam.

It made me think how so few of us in each country really wanted to fight these wars.

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