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Why wasn't the steam engine invented earlier? Part II

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Re: Why wasn't the steam engine invented earlier? Part II

#231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

However, this blundering about approach only works if almost anything could have worked and so you just keep trying until you hit upon it. You can discover that eating one of the dozen types of plants growing on the hillside nearby treats toothache without any overarching theory about how that could work, just try eating stuff and see what happens - but you aren't going to invent the LED lamp this way. Example: When…

I think that your fundamental premise is wrong: there've been a large number of ancient / preindustrial inventions which were not obvious, which were terrifically surprising, or which required a tremendous amount of skill or craft to accomplish. It'd be interesting to come up with a catalogue of these.... Your transoceanic cable example is an interesting one, as the first electrical / telegraph cables greatly expande…

Yeah, something more systematic would be good.

Sometimes it's surprising what nobody was interested in inventing. I think Grace Hopper is really important because people were resistant to the idea that programming the computer involved boring mindless steps which could be done by a machine and so of course instead of hand writing the program in machine code you should write a higher level language and have the machine translate that. It's incredible now, but this very idea was once an important invention and yet her superiors were not enthusiastic.

Re: Why wasn't the steam engine invented earlier? Part II

#232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My suspicion is that a lot of the basics of glider flight were a lot easlier to discover / develop with powered aircraft. Given the relatively low power-output, and reliability, of early engines, many early aircraft might be considered (intermittently) powered gliders. It could still have been possible to work things out based on JATO launch, though the hang-glider approach of low sand-dune testing / training would p…

Actually many gliders, such as thosed used by the nascent Luftwaffe when they were banned from real aircraft used things like rubber bands and human towing to launch, and I can remember ground-based winches being used to launch RAF cadet planes when I was a kid.

I'm not arguing that ground-launching gliders isn't possible.

I'm saying that having an airworthy craft once you're off the ground takes some doing, and it's probably easier to get there if you're experimenting with powered craft.

The early powered heavier-than-air craft were not especially aeronautically sound. But with the ability to perform design-build-test cycles, and not kill overly many pilots in the process, once engines existed design progressed rapidly.

Getting from the Wright Flyer to a modern sailplane would have been far more challenging without engines.

Re: Why wasn't the steam engine invented earlier? Part II

#233
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

More generally: technology (engineering) delivers results . Understanding why it does so is not required, and often comes quite late. If you want explanation , that's a role of science, though it's often preceded by a very long period of systematic observation. One striking example is geology, which has existed since at least the 17th century, but which didn't formally adopt its central organising and explanatory pri…

Also, a lot of empirical progress in ML didn't happen until people stopped worrying about explainability and theoretical guarantees. Remember when NNs were unfashionable?

my impression is that mostly NNs made progress when compute got really cheap.

Re: Why wasn't the steam engine invented earlier? Part II

#234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that your fundamental premise is wrong: there've been a large number of ancient / preindustrial inventions which were not obvious, which were terrifically surprising, or which required a tremendous amount of skill or craft to accomplish. It'd be interesting to come up with a catalogue of these.... Your transoceanic cable example is an interesting one, as the first electrical / telegraph cables greatly expande…

Yeah, something more systematic would be good. Sometimes it's surprising what nobody was interested in inventing. I think Grace Hopper is really important because people were resistant to the idea that programming the computer involved boring mindless steps which could be done by a machine and so of course instead of hand writing the program in machine code you should write a higher level language and have the machin…

There's an inherent resistance to change, even where it provides improvement.

Bernhard J. Stein's *Resistances to the Adoption of Technological Innovations" (1937) is a fascinating read in this regard:

https://archive.org/details/technologicaltre1937unitrich/pag...

As Markdown: https://rentry.co/szi3g

I'd heard of it via Isaac Asimov who mentions it in his biography and a few other contexts. Asimov was Stern's research assistant, and incorporated the ideas into several of his own stories.

Re: Why wasn't the steam engine invented earlier? Part II

#235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Imagine if you were living in this period - England was constantly at war, the trees had all run out, and quality metal was nowhere to be found. You would think you were in the late stages of humanity, not at the cusp of the greatest moment of human progress. Also, if we wanted to go back even further, the true roots are probably the Enlightenment. Before Wilkinson and Watt and Darby could think to develop technology…

Rights to privately acquire land, create corporations, and sell across markets were extant across different civilizations throughout history. The Chola merchant guilds had formalized corporate structures that dissipated the risk of long voyages 2000 years ago. Seeing that the Romans traded with the Cholas, the Romans probably had corporate structures too. Humans have been living in complex societies since the Bronze…

The problem is that (early) Medieval Europe has lost much of that.

Romans built blocks of dwelling houses 5-6 stories high, houses with central heating, and running water delivered to their cities (and wealthier homes) by systems of aqueducts and pipes, etc. These are things that we associate with 19th or even 20th century in large parts of Europe.

Sadly, their social institutions, even as famous as the republic, were also not practiced and even forgotten for long centuries. Much of the Enlightenment was fueled by re-reading and re-understanding of classic Greek and Roman works, which felt fresh and mind-expanding at the time.

Re: Why wasn't the steam engine invented earlier? Part II

#236

Environmental collapse and the price of steel! I think people forget just how expensive metal was. Carpenters would lock up their saws because the blades were so precious. People knew how to make cheaper steel from coal for a long time, but it was regarded as an inferior product and avoided. However, charcoal is labor intensive stuff to collect. By the 1700s, some cities in Europe had so depleted their available fore…

Imagine if you were living in this period - England was constantly at war, the trees had all run out, and quality metal was nowhere to be found. You would think you were in the late stages of humanity, not at the cusp of the greatest moment of human progress. Also, if we wanted to go back even further, the true roots are probably the Enlightenment. Before Wilkinson and Watt and Darby could think to develop technology…

If you read English literature from the mid-18th century there doesn't seem to have been a sense that they were in the late stages of humanity. People were adaptable and accustomed to tolerating hardships that would shock most of us. Yes, the large trees had mostly been cut down but they were able to import enough lumber for essential construction projects.

Re: Why wasn't the steam engine invented earlier? Part II

#237
post #178

Environmental collapse and the price of steel! I think people forget just how expensive metal was. Carpenters would lock up their saws because the blades were so precious. People knew how to make cheaper steel from coal for a long time, but it was regarded as an inferior product and avoided. However, charcoal is labor intensive stuff to collect. By the 1700s, some cities in Europe had so depleted their available fore…

I wonder if there is anything today that would need to come down (or up) in price to kick off a revolution. I've heard some argue that was decentralized payments online (cryptocurrency) but that hasn't led to much outside of speculation IMO. The other thing I heard was battery technology. Just recently a podcast with Matthew Ball, he makes the argument that AR/VR/metaverse technology needs a breakthrough (in part) in…

If robots were way cheaper it would change quite a bit.

Re: Why wasn't the steam engine invented earlier? Part II

#238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I tend to believe most technology revolutions boil down to: "we made a crappier version of x technology, but it's stupidly cheaper" - cheap enough to throw applications at it. Diesel trains are not as powerful as steam trains of yore were, but diesel locomotives are so much cheaper to build and maintain that you can run 3-4 of them at a time and still save money. LCD screens did not produce as good of a picture quali…

> Diesel trains are not as powerful as steam trains of yore were, but diesel locomotives are so much cheaper to build and maintain that you can run 3-4 of them at a time and still save money. Am I missing something? It looks like hundreds of diesel-electric locomotives are more powerful than the most powerful steam engines ever made. I went to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_largest_locomotives then sorted by t…

Definitely not current diesel trains, but maybe gp is referring to when they were first introduced.

Re: Why wasn't the steam engine invented earlier? Part II

#239
post #219
post #142

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Quoted post unavailable.

Religious flamewar will get you banned here, regardless of how right you are or feel you are. Please don't post like this to HN again. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Thanks for the respectful nudge and reminder that HN has some of the more thoughtful and nuanced content guidelines of any popular forum. The discussion tone fostered here is what makes this site enduringly great. I didn’t project my initial comment would cause such offense amongst certain users and now realize my offhand followup was insensitive.

Re: Why wasn't the steam engine invented earlier? Part II

#240
To me the most surprising thing about this series is that de Caus had a working CSP (concentrated solar power) setup by 01615 (https://antonhowes.substack.com/i/57230676/solar-powered-ste..., original source https://archive.org/details/raisonsdesforce00Caus). I had thought CSP only dated to Shuman's installation in Egypt in 01913, but I see that https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concentrated_solar_power#Histo... also mentions that Mouchout did a solar steam engine in 01866.

But 01615! We've had working solar power machinery for four centuries.

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