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Why wasn't the steam engine invented earlier? Part II

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Re: Why wasn't the steam engine invented earlier? Part II

#51

Post by tialaramex »

terhechte wrote: post #40

The Greek philosoper Hero of Alexandria actually invented something close to a steam engine in the 1st century BE [1]. Whenever I think about "obvious" inventions which happened quite late in our civilization, I remember "The road not taken", a fantastic short story that plays with this idea. [2] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeolipile [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Road_Not_Taken_(short_stor...

Chris Robertson's "O One" has a British man present the Chinese Emperor (well, Emperor of the World, China having conquered the rest of the globe) with his primitive Analytical Engine, a machine which can perform arithmetic. The many human Computers employed in the Emperor's House of Computation are keen that this idea shouldn't go anywhere...

Re: Why wasn't the steam engine invented earlier? Part II

#52

Post by Ekaros »

zabzonk wrote: post #50
stevenjgarner wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What amazes me about heavier than air flight is that it was invented all over the planet at virtually the same time by all kinds of unrelated people who had no connection or communication with or little knowledge of one another. Sure here in the US we ethnocentrically recite the Kitty Hawk event of the Wright Brothers as if it appeared in a vacuum out of nowhere. But in reality, heavier than air flight was invented s…

I think that what you say is probably true, but things like thermal-riding or slope-soaring gliders would have been very useful (for the military, if nothing else) before the invention of the IC engine.

Big questions is getting those to air, what you actually do with them and then how to solve communicating from them. Just think of how very early WW1 planes were actually used.

Re: Why wasn't the steam engine invented earlier? Part II

#53

Post by aikinai »

Waterluvian wrote: post #46

I’m no expert on the history of invention but I assume there’s some latency where a technology is discovered and it takes time to make it useful. And then that opens up new technologies to be discovered etc. Something I’m curious about are what technologies sat around a very very long time with no real blocker for discovery. That it was as simple as “nobody thought to do it that way…”

Fixed-wing flight is one. I remember that being a point in the aviation exhibit at the London Science Museum. Nothing was stopping people from building hang-gliders in at least the Renaissance, maybe earlier? But everyone was fixated on flapping wings.

I think one of the Assassin’s Creed games plays with the idea, having Leonardo build a hang-glider for the main character.

Re: Why wasn't the steam engine invented earlier? Part II

#54

Post by zabzonk »

Ekaros wrote: post #52
zabzonk wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that what you say is probably true, but things like thermal-riding or slope-soaring gliders would have been very useful (for the military, if nothing else) before the invention of the IC engine.

Big questions is getting those to air, what you actually do with them and then how to solve communicating from them. Just think of how very early WW1 planes were actually used.

At the speed armies moved back in the (say) 15th century, this would probably not been such a problem, but I take your point.

Re: Why wasn't the steam engine invented earlier? Part II

#55

Post by causi »

Waterluvian wrote: post #46

I’m no expert on the history of invention but I assume there’s some latency where a technology is discovered and it takes time to make it useful. And then that opens up new technologies to be discovered etc. Something I’m curious about are what technologies sat around a very very long time with no real blocker for discovery. That it was as simple as “nobody thought to do it that way…”

Like stirrups.

Re: Why wasn't the steam engine invented earlier? Part II

#56

Post by ioseph »

aikinai wrote: post #53
Waterluvian wrote: post #46

I’m no expert on the history of invention but I assume there’s some latency where a technology is discovered and it takes time to make it useful. And then that opens up new technologies to be discovered etc. Something I’m curious about are what technologies sat around a very very long time with no real blocker for discovery. That it was as simple as “nobody thought to do it that way…”

Fixed-wing flight is one. I remember that being a point in the aviation exhibit at the London Science Museum. Nothing was stopping people from building hang-gliders in at least the Renaissance, maybe earlier? But everyone was fixated on flapping wings. I think one of the Assassin’s Creed games plays with the idea, having Leonardo build a hang-glider for the main character.

Unpowered gliders tend to need aerofoils which is a pretty advanced concept that took us a while to get right

Re: Why wasn't the steam engine invented earlier? Part II

#57

Post by dham »

Jensson wrote: post #5
zabzonk wrote: post #2

What I have always wondered about is why heavier-than-air flight was not invented earlier? Or put it this way: when was the folded paper (or your material here) airplane invented, and by whom? Then, why not make it bigger?

They lacked the physics theory to make planes stable enough to carry a load, and nobody wants to experiment throwing themselves out over a cliff with prototype wings that will likely get them killed.

You didn't need to throw yourself off a cliff though. Just think of something like Jockey's Ridge.

Re: Why wasn't the steam engine invented earlier? Part II

#58

Post by helsinkiandrew »

There's a big gap between 'inventing' a steam engine as a diagram in a book or table top novelty and physically creating one that can do more work than a horse or two, can work continuously, and is safe to use.

The technical advances of Newcomen and Watt also coincided with the ability to create boilers and pressure chambers that didn't explode (too often).

Re: Why wasn't the steam engine invented earlier? Part II

#60

Post by criley2 »

dredmorbius wrote: post #29
zabzonk wrote: post #2

What I have always wondered about is why heavier-than-air flight was not invented earlier? Or put it this way: when was the folded paper (or your material here) airplane invented, and by whom? Then, why not make it bigger?

Powered flight came about virtually the moment a high power-to-weight engine (based on aluminium and petrol fuel) existed. Once rapid design-build-test cycles were practial, the initial Wright design rapidly shifted to a monocoque fuselage with forward wings and empennage, emerging within a decade. In just over 30 years after the Wright's first powered flight, the DC-3, an aircraft still in commercial operation was f…

>Powered flight came about virtually the moment a high power-to-weight engine (based on aluminium and petrol fuel) existed.

The only thing I would change is that this makes it seem like powered flight was waiting on the engine, when it was waiting on the plane.

One thing that struck me at the Museum of Flight in Seattle is how far advanced IC technology was while the Wright brothers were gliding in wooden contraptions. They had turbocharged v12 diesel engines and Benz was already making aluminum engines for cars before the Wright brothers made their first attempt.

I found it fascinating how as soon as flight was demonstrated, it only took a few years to go from a wooden prototype to a sophisticated machine with a very complex engine.

Bonus pic of some of those early engines https://i.imgur.com/mENnuHH.png

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