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Why wasn't the steam engine invented earlier? Part II

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Re: Why wasn't the steam engine invented earlier? Part II

#11

Post by zabzonk »

kevin_thibedeau wrote: post #4
zabzonk wrote: post #2

What I have always wondered about is why heavier-than-air flight was not invented earlier? Or put it this way: when was the folded paper (or your material here) airplane invented, and by whom? Then, why not make it bigger?

Paper airplanes were around for centuries. Nobody knew how they worked.

Nobody knew how penecilin worked when it was first discovered (we now know it inhibits the growth of the bacterial cell wall) but that did not stop people using it, to good effect. Similar for many other discoveries/inventions.

Re: Why wasn't the steam engine invented earlier? Part II

#12

Post by iso1631 »

zabzonk wrote: post #2

What I have always wondered about is why heavier-than-air flight was not invented earlier? Or put it this way: when was the folded paper (or your material here) airplane invented, and by whom? Then, why not make it bigger?

Heavier than air flight dates back at least 2500 years from bamboo helicopter toys in China, with various others through the 17th to 19th century, however the first manned, powered, controlled flight of a heavier-than-air craft wasn't until Whitehead, Wright et. al at the end of the 19th century

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_flying_machines#Primitiv...

Re: Why wasn't the steam engine invented earlier? Part II

#13

Post by zabzonk »

morelisp wrote: post #8
zabzonk wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Kind of supports my question - if tethered kites, why not untethered ones (i.e. aircraft)? And man-lifting kites have, of course been a thing for ages.

Reliable steering requires aerodynamics requires quite a lot of mathematical development, plus considerable precision engineering. And it's extremely dangerous, a lot of people did die trying to make steerable kites.

> quite a lot of mathematical development, plus considerable precision engineering

Not sure the Wright brothers would be with you on this - neither were maths guys and their aircraft were hardly precision-built.

Re: Why wasn't the steam engine invented earlier? Part II

#14

Post by zabzonk »

Jensson wrote: post #5
zabzonk wrote: post #2

What I have always wondered about is why heavier-than-air flight was not invented earlier? Or put it this way: when was the folded paper (or your material here) airplane invented, and by whom? Then, why not make it bigger?

They lacked the physics theory to make planes stable enough to carry a load, and nobody wants to experiment throwing themselves out over a cliff with prototype wings that will likely get them killed.

> nobody wants to experiment throwing themselves out over a cliff with prototype wings that will likely get them killed.

Actually, not a few people did exactly that! If they had used a scaled-up paper plane, they might have lived. Or think of a modern hang-glider, but made from bamboo and silk.

Re: Why wasn't the steam engine invented earlier? Part II

#15

Post by morelisp »

f0e4c2f7 wrote: post #6
kevin_thibedeau wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Paper airplanes were around for centuries. Nobody knew how they worked.

This is really interesting and I had never considered it before. Would you happen to know any books or articles that tell the history leading up to the wright brothers but focusing on those kind of questions and theories?

Although the mathematics is quite complex (Newton, Bernoulli, Navier-Stokes) the history happens fairly quickly as the mathematics appears. Bernoulli published in 1738, Cayley designed the fixed-wing aircraft in 1799. From that point it was mostly a matter of finding ways to increase thrust / reduce weight through better engine design to achieve useful flight time / lift.

Re: Why wasn't the steam engine invented earlier? Part II

#16

Post by earthbee »

globalise83 wrote: post #10
zabzonk wrote: post #2

What I have always wondered about is why heavier-than-air flight was not invented earlier? Or put it this way: when was the folded paper (or your material here) airplane invented, and by whom? Then, why not make it bigger?

I often wonder the same. As someone with a hobby of making unpowered gliders from balsa wood and laminating sheets, I often wonder why such simple contraptions (I can make very nice gliders with around 20 pieces of wood and one sheet) weren't discovered using easily available woods and paper many centuries ago and extrapolated to bigger machines with fabric and wooden struts. Seems that the raw materials would have b…

Maybe because trial an error improvement isn't possible if you're actually flying the vehicle? Just a guess.

Re: Why wasn't the steam engine invented earlier? Part II

#17

Post by morelisp »

zabzonk wrote: post #13
morelisp wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reliable steering requires aerodynamics requires quite a lot of mathematical development, plus considerable precision engineering. And it's extremely dangerous, a lot of people did die trying to make steerable kites.

> quite a lot of mathematical development, plus considerable precision engineering Not sure the Wright brothers would be with you on this - neither were maths guys and their aircraft were hardly precision-built.

And what, there's nobody between Archimedes and the Wright Brothers I could have been referring to? Whatever...

Re: Why wasn't the steam engine invented earlier? Part II

#18

Post by morelisp »

globalise83 wrote: post #10
zabzonk wrote: post #2

What I have always wondered about is why heavier-than-air flight was not invented earlier? Or put it this way: when was the folded paper (or your material here) airplane invented, and by whom? Then, why not make it bigger?

I often wonder the same. As someone with a hobby of making unpowered gliders from balsa wood and laminating sheets, I often wonder why such simple contraptions (I can make very nice gliders with around 20 pieces of wood and one sheet) weren't discovered using easily available woods and paper many centuries ago and extrapolated to bigger machines with fabric and wooden struts. Seems that the raw materials would have b…

> Truly remarkable that gliding firebombs and the like were never invented for warfare.

What? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kite#Military_applications

Steering is important though, you need to a) go up, b) go the right place, not back at you, c) come down, again not where you are.

Re: Why wasn't the steam engine invented earlier? Part II

#19

Post by [deleted] »

zabzonk wrote: post #13
morelisp wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reliable steering requires aerodynamics requires quite a lot of mathematical development, plus considerable precision engineering. And it's extremely dangerous, a lot of people did die trying to make steerable kites.

> quite a lot of mathematical development, plus considerable precision engineering Not sure the Wright brothers would be with you on this - neither were maths guys and their aircraft were hardly precision-built.

[deleted]

Re: Why wasn't the steam engine invented earlier? Part II

#20

Post by zabzonk »

globalise83 wrote: post #10
zabzonk wrote: post #2

What I have always wondered about is why heavier-than-air flight was not invented earlier? Or put it this way: when was the folded paper (or your material here) airplane invented, and by whom? Then, why not make it bigger?

I often wonder the same. As someone with a hobby of making unpowered gliders from balsa wood and laminating sheets, I often wonder why such simple contraptions (I can make very nice gliders with around 20 pieces of wood and one sheet) weren't discovered using easily available woods and paper many centuries ago and extrapolated to bigger machines with fabric and wooden struts. Seems that the raw materials would have b…

Yeah, I used to build toy gliders too - it's really easy, though with balsa of course, which would not have been available in western Europe during the Renaissance (so tough shit Leonardo) but there are other light-weight materials, which is what sparked my question.
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