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Manhattan rents cross $5k threshold for first time

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Re: Manhattan rents cross $5k threshold for first time

#281

Post by m0llusk »

runeks wrote: post #245
m_ke wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm no NIMBY but places like NYC will never be able to build enough to outpace demand.

Why do you believe that?

Cannot speak for the poster, but the big current issue is that the value of residential units has gone from being strongly linked to wages to residences being an extremely valuable chip for playing financial games. Residences, especially inherently valuable ones like NYC apartments, have sufficient demand from financial game players that wage earners are barely able to keep up. Exactly how things break down is not clear, but there is this idea that demand for residences for financial purposes is competing aggressively with people who want homes.

Re: Manhattan rents cross $5k threshold for first time

#282

Post by the_only_law »

m_ke wrote: post #221
huevosabio wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Housing =/= Land. But our policies which heavily kneecap our ability to build more [0] make it such that Housing starts behaving like Land. The solution is to build more, and the success of Vienna does not come from public intervention but from the added supply. Tokyo is another city with famously cheap housing, and the secret is that they make it easy to build. I personally think that achieving affordable housing pr…

I'm no NIMBY but places like NYC will never be able to build enough to outpace demand.

I thought there was a ton of empty housing in NYC, it's just insanely expensive.

Re: Manhattan rents cross $5k threshold for first time

#283

Post by ElevenLathe »

eatsyourtacos wrote: post #202
nickles wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> should be heavy state intervention on it, preferably by doing the same as Vienna, which is holding >40% of the renting stock and charging according to income This is great policy if you want to make housing unaffordable. When supply is less than demand, prices go up. Those price increases incentivize builders to increase the housing stock (which subsequently lowers prices). Capping prices prevents the price mechani…

>When supply is less than demand, prices go up Question though... why, exactly does that have to be the case? Especially with something like housing where say there is mostly a fixed supply at any point and you can't just turn a machine on/off to produce more. The only reason the prices go up is because of greed basically- because people say "hey I can just charge more and people will pay more!". And there in lies th…

I largely agree, but if there is a scarce good (where there is less of it available than people want -- i.e. supply is less than demand) then we have to ration it /somehow/. The American way is by bidding up the price, so whoever is willing to pay the most money gets it. The Soviet way was by queuing, so whoever gets in line first gets it. We could also do it by lottery. We can come up with any number of schemes and most of them are "fairer" than market pricing, but they do all involve the "price" going up in some sense. Either you pay more in money, or in time, or in luck, but the price has increased because there are more people chasing the stuff than there is stuff to chase.

Re: Manhattan rents cross $5k threshold for first time

#284

Post by supercanuck »

spaniard89277 wrote: post #36

Housing and land is a non-transable good, and therefore there should be heavy state intervention on it, preferably by doing the same as Vienna, which is holding >40% of the renting stock and charging according to income, and renting to a representative distribution of tenants so to prevent guettos. Rent is the main detractor of disposable income which hurts the rest of the economy, and property owners provide almost…

Very high quality comment and very insightful!

Re: Manhattan rents cross $5k threshold for first time

#285

Post by lazyier »

spaniard89277 wrote: post #36

Housing and land is a non-transable good, and therefore there should be heavy state intervention on it, preferably by doing the same as Vienna, which is holding >40% of the renting stock and charging according to income, and renting to a representative distribution of tenants so to prevent guettos. Rent is the main detractor of disposable income which hurts the rest of the economy, and property owners provide almost…

This post is stupid beyond all measure.

One of the principal reasons Manhattan rent is so ridiculous is because of state intervention. More intervention, the worse it is going to get.

> Rent is the main detractor of disposable income which hurts the rest of the economy,

This is a silly statement. Rent is part of the economy. Paying rent doesn't damage the economy anymore then paying for food or paying your electrical bill.

> and property owners provide almost no value,

They provide and maintain their property.

> but to provide access to housing for people who has no capital for it,

And for a wide variety of other reasons. Not everybody wants or is a place in their life were massive permanent investment makes sense.

> which is service that could be perfectly provided by a state entity.

Absolutely not.

Re: Manhattan rents cross $5k threshold for first time

#286

Post by m_ke »

runeks wrote: post #245
m_ke wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm no NIMBY but places like NYC will never be able to build enough to outpace demand.

Why do you believe that?

Because I grew up in Brooklyn and Queens and saw what all of the new development did to the demand. The street that my grandmother used to rent an apartment for in the early 2000s for under $1k/month now only has units that go for $5K/month.

Here's greenpoint as an example: https://www.zumper.com/rent-research/new-york-ny/greenpoint. Same goes for LIC.

Re: Manhattan rents cross $5k threshold for first time

#287

Post by Zxian »

eloff wrote: post #227
m_ke wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm no NIMBY but places like NYC will never be able to build enough to outpace demand.

And yet it works in Tokyo, a city of almost double the population?

New York City already has a significantly higher population density than Tokyo (~11,300/km2 vs ~6,300/km). It's easier to develop more housing when you have more land.

Re: Manhattan rents cross $5k threshold for first time

#288

Post by ponow »

voidhorse wrote: post #210
TOMDM wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> CMV Rent is high because the demand in large cities majorly out strips supply. All policies that attempt to address housing costs that don't increase supply are treating a symptom and not the underlying cause.

Sure that’s the capitalist narrative explanation. The actual, human, explanation is that landlords see that they can get away with charging absurd rates because consumers are willing to make dumb decisions to get what they want, so they do it. I’m sick of these economic abstractions that constantly try to explain away our problems, and take away the responsibility from the human actors that cause these effects. It’s…

Let them charge what they want if it's theirs. Otherwise, your demands on what they charge amount to asserting that what is theirs isn't really. And, to put responsibility on the actor in question, you're asking that the lost potential value be stolen from the owner, for the benefit of non-owners. Can people own stuff, or not?

Re: Manhattan rents cross $5k threshold for first time

#289

Post by wowokay »

spaniard89277 wrote: post #36

Housing and land is a non-transable good, and therefore there should be heavy state intervention on it, preferably by doing the same as Vienna, which is holding >40% of the renting stock and charging according to income, and renting to a representative distribution of tenants so to prevent guettos. Rent is the main detractor of disposable income which hurts the rest of the economy, and property owners provide almost…

Housing/rent is a part of your disposable income. Some people live in expensive places because they want too, but no one is required to live in an expensive place because they have too. I agree in the idea of affordable housing but I don’t think it’s fair to promote sweeping changes because people decide to live in expensive cities like NYC.

Re: Manhattan rents cross $5k threshold for first time

#290

Post by TOMDM »

HPsquared wrote: post #269
TOMDM wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> CMV Rent is high because the demand in large cities majorly out strips supply. All policies that attempt to address housing costs that don't increase supply are treating a symptom and not the underlying cause.

High rent reduces demand and reflects an equilibrium between supply and demand. That, and people in Manhattan simply can afford to pay more, so are able to bid up the prices higher than tenants in other places.

True.

People are asking how you would lower the price though.

If you don't _want_ lower prices, then the NIMBY positions make sense, don't build more to meet rising demand, keep prices high and poorer people out.

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