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Element (Matrix) launches Chatterbox, end-to-end encrypted embedded chat

element.io

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Re: Element (Matrix) launches Chatterbox, end-to-end encrypted embedded chat

#81

Post by jeroenhd »

ldldldjsnd wrote: post #50
t6jvcereio wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure the problem was the client (element for Android). Asking around it seems people on the chatrooms kind of agreed the issue was matrix.org Regardless, if you believe the issue is the client, which would you recommend is the lightest/fastest client?

The problem of slow joins isn't the client, it's the protocol. Just join the Synapse admins channel on matrix.org (will take half an hour to load, your client will time out and give you an error but it will load eventually) and the other admins will tell you they're all aware of the problem. Shocking to see Arathorn deflecting about this. I run a server and just never use federation to avoid the problem. Not sure why…

I disagree that the protocol is the problem. There's a combination of frontend/backend issues impacting performance, but servers written in faster languages don't seem to struggle with joining channels all that much.

Synapse being written in Python seems like a much bigger problem to me. This problem only exists in rooms not already available on the server, though; if you register with matrix.org then matrix.org rooms won't suffer nearly as much as running your own server.

Sadly, alternatives like Conduit still aren't fully-featured and they probably won't ever be as focus lies on the Element ecosystem. It's a real shame.

Re: Element (Matrix) launches Chatterbox, end-to-end encrypted embedded chat

#82

Post by jeroenhd »

t6jvcereio wrote: post #71
abnercoimbre wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're talking about a specific issue with federation at scale. I run a hybrid conference in Seattle and we use Matrix. I make a successful living out of this, so it seems a stretch to call it useless.

E-mail has much bigger scale and is fast

A single email messages often takes minutes to receive. Conversations are usually highly asynchronous. I wouldn't call it fast, exactly.

Re: Element (Matrix) launches Chatterbox, end-to-end encrypted embedded chat

#83

Post by jeroenhd »

feanaro wrote: post #28
jeroenhd wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Personally, I find that the Matrix.org server is much better for large rooms. Most of the content is already cached on the server by all the other accounts on there, so joining large rooms takes seconds instead of minutes. Modern sync (v3 already, I think?) also helps a huge amount but it needs client and server support. I've tried to join the main matrix chat room (#matrix:matrix.org) but my poor homeserver just cou…

Modern sync (sliding sync, v3 sync) only helps with non-encrypted rooms. For encrypted rooms, it degrades to essentially the old sync v2 performance.

That's true, but most rooms where this is a problem (the huge ones) aren't encrypted. There's no way you're going to cross-verify everyone in a room with 4000 users in it so encryption in such rooms is essentially useless.

Re: Element (Matrix) launches Chatterbox, end-to-end encrypted embedded chat

#84

Post by Arathorn »

ldldldjsnd wrote: post #50
t6jvcereio wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure the problem was the client (element for Android). Asking around it seems people on the chatrooms kind of agreed the issue was matrix.org Regardless, if you believe the issue is the client, which would you recommend is the lightest/fastest client?

The problem of slow joins isn't the client, it's the protocol. Just join the Synapse admins channel on matrix.org (will take half an hour to load, your client will time out and give you an error but it will load eventually) and the other admins will tell you they're all aware of the problem. Shocking to see Arathorn deflecting about this. I run a server and just never use federation to avoid the problem. Not sure why…

I’m not deflecting - i’m just trying to figure out which slowness folks are complaining about. Is it really slow joins over federation (which is absolutely a real problem, which is why we’re busy implementing https://github.com/matrix-org/synapse/milestone/6). Or is it Element Android being sluggish when changing rooms? Or is it a slow server being slow to send messages?

My point was that saying “matrix is slow” is unhelpful given it’s completely unclear what aspect is being complained about.

Re: Element (Matrix) launches Chatterbox, end-to-end encrypted embedded chat

#85

Post by godelski »

maxloh wrote: post #12

What is the benefit of end to end encryption in this scenario? There is no risk of service provider spying on you because you as the business is the service provider.

> What is the benefit of end to end encryption in this scenario?

Let's say I'm talking to my bank. Is there really any information that you want open? They're going to ask you security questions to confirm your identity. You're likely talking about specific sums of money.

Let's say you're talking to your doctor. Is there really any information that you want open? Are you violating HIPPA and privacy laws just by talking? Your health is of no concern to anyone but you and your health provider. Full stop.

I mean, they use these two examples in the post. The use case is pretty clear to me here. The risk isn't your service provider spying on you, it is anyone that you aren't intending to talk to. A hacker (who may be interested in your bank or health care). A state actor. Abusive ex. Data companies that extract every bit of information they can. Or politicians who want to track your period. Maybe this isn't useful when I'm submitting tickets to wandb, but I can see this being very helpful when I'm talking to my bank.

Re: Element (Matrix) launches Chatterbox, end-to-end encrypted embedded chat

#86

Post by Saris »

t6jvcereio wrote: post #8

Incidentally I tried matrix for the first time on the basis of someone recommending it here in HN, and it's extremely slow

I found the same, as soon as I join any larger rooms it starts to struggle.

The clients feel sluggish as well, just in terms of moving around the UI.

Re: Element (Matrix) launches Chatterbox, end-to-end encrypted embedded chat

#87

Post by maxloh »

viccuad wrote: post #75
maxloh wrote: post #12

What is the benefit of end to end encryption in this scenario? There is no risk of service provider spying on you because you as the business is the service provider.

In addition to points from others: no middleman can tamper with the information being sent (e.g: see how Russia changes content of pages served via http to display war propaganda or ads).

How did that work with HTTPS?

Re: Element (Matrix) launches Chatterbox, end-to-end encrypted embedded chat

#88

Post by t6jvcereio »

xvilka wrote: post #63
encryptluks2 wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Probably because the app is a bloated piece of junk

All Electron apps are slower by orders of magnitude than the native ones by definition. Trying any non-Element client might help.

Could you please suggest one native android client?

Re: Element (Matrix) launches Chatterbox, end-to-end encrypted embedded chat

#89

Post by Legogris »

Arathorn wrote: post #84
ldldldjsnd wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem of slow joins isn't the client, it's the protocol. Just join the Synapse admins channel on matrix.org (will take half an hour to load, your client will time out and give you an error but it will load eventually) and the other admins will tell you they're all aware of the problem. Shocking to see Arathorn deflecting about this. I run a server and just never use federation to avoid the problem. Not sure why…

I’m not deflecting - i’m just trying to figure out which slowness folks are complaining about. Is it really slow joins over federation (which is absolutely a real problem, which is why we’re busy implementing https://github.com/matrix-org/synapse/milestone/6 ). Or is it Element Android being sluggish when changing rooms? Or is it a slow server being slow to send messages? My point was that saying “matrix is slow” is…

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32020929

Re: Element (Matrix) launches Chatterbox, end-to-end encrypted embedded chat

#90

Post by Arathorn »

Legogris wrote: post #23
Arathorn wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

this is like saying “i tried the web, and it’s extremely slow”. what server were you using? and which client on which platform?

Not the person you're replying to but following up on an identical past thread: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30996203 > Linux, x86_64. Getting the same behavior across distros and installations. It is still very much the case. To emphasize, we have for the past couple of years used Matrix routinely on: * Multiple client implementations * Multiple OSs (Linux/Android/iOS) * Multiple accounts and profiles * Mult…

Element Desktop shouldn't freeze, hang or be extremely slow on an account with large numbers of large rooms. My personal account is in around 4000 rooms which span around 500K users, and it's completely usable on Element Desktop on macOS on an average intel macbook from ~4 years ago.

So whatever is going wrong here is presumably a Linux-specific bug on Element Desktop, which I'm unaware of, and haven't heard from any of the other linux Element Desktop users. Have you filed an issue with logs to get it on our radar? HN is not our bug tracker...

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