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The Lightning Network: Turning Bitcoin into Money

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Re: The Lightning Network: Turning Bitcoin into Money

#171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It keeps many of the properties of bitcoin: - decentralised - trustless - censure resistance Edit: - pseudonymous

I'm confused by your comment, L2 transactions are by definition run by centralized entities.

That's the whole problem that Lightning solves with other tradeoffs. There are no centralized entities.

Re: The Lightning Network: Turning Bitcoin into Money

#172

Why use LN when other simple L1 solutions already work great as money. Litecoin (LTC) has cheap fees and lots of room. Bitcoin Cash (BCH) is constantly improving and has a ton of transaction room to grow, with increases if/when demand grows. Dogecoin (DOGE) not my favorite, but does work fine for the money use-case, but development, from what I can see is a bit stale. With these existing simple solutions, I don't see…

Because bitcoin is money, and shitcoins are not.

Re: The Lightning Network: Turning Bitcoin into Money

#173
post #148

Why use LN when other simple L1 solutions already work great as money. Litecoin (LTC) has cheap fees and lots of room. Bitcoin Cash (BCH) is constantly improving and has a ton of transaction room to grow, with increases if/when demand grows. Dogecoin (DOGE) not my favorite, but does work fine for the money use-case, but development, from what I can see is a bit stale. With these existing simple solutions, I don't see…

The holy grail is a cryptocurrency that can scale to billions of users while maintaining sufficient decentralization and security to be immune to state-level attack and corruption. BTC in combination with the higher level protocols such as Lightning (and others not yet conceived) is the only system that I believe can achieve this.

[deleted]

Re: The Lightning Network: Turning Bitcoin into Money

#174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The internet does not scale in layers. This sounds more like Bitcoin is not scalable, so we're introducing abstractions to work around its limitations.

Are you familiar with OSI and TCP/IP architecture? Because it definitely works in layers.

TCP has stronger consistency guarantees, and worse performance, than the underlying IP network. Doing it the other way around is usually considered an anti-pattern [1].

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abstraction_inversion

Re: The Lightning Network: Turning Bitcoin into Money

#175
post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The physical fruits and nuts still have to be smuggled out of Iran and into a country supporting the sanctions for this to make sense. And the physical smuggling seems way more difficult than figuring out the payments.

They don't have to be smuggled out of Iran - Iran explicitly wants to enable that trade. Who inside of Iran are they smuggling the fruits away from?

They have to be smuggled INTO another country. One that has applied sanctions and doesn’t want Iran’s fruits and nuts. Violating import laws especially for agricultural products is a big deal.

Re: The Lightning Network: Turning Bitcoin into Money

#176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

BTC and a lot of other chains are Level 1 (L1). Final settlement layers for transactions. To compare that to normal banking, your credit card is like an L5. Tons of things go on in-between your CC transactions before its actually settled even if it appears to be instant and final to the end user. Truth is crypto enthusiasts have been overly ambition in this space, insisting a single L1 chain will come along and be th…

That just sounds like banking with extra steps.

Spoken like someone who doesn't know the steps involved in opening a bank account (hint: many people can't), accepting online payments using a bank account (hint: hope you have deep pockets), using a bank for sending interbank/international payments (hint: might need to collect a page worth of information from your recipient. second hint: their bank might refuse to receive the payment), etc. Bonus steps: do all the above programmatically using an API (hint: you might have a billion-dollar startup in your hands).

Now do all the above using Bitcoin/lightning network. You'll be done in 15 mins.

Re: The Lightning Network: Turning Bitcoin into Money

#177
post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is this better than Visa and MC?

The 1.5-3.5% credit card processing fee for starters. Also, you can't use a CC to send money peer-to-peer globally at near-zero cost.

> The 1.5-3.5% credit card processing fee for starters.

Compared to... 1 dollar, no, 15 dollars, no, 5 dollars, no, 65 dollars, no, ... transaction fees for Bitcoin.

Re: The Lightning Network: Turning Bitcoin into Money

#178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

but what's the benefit of these? - decentralised: why is this good? - trustless: I trust the companies I use, it works - censure resistance: OK, fringe case for most - pseudonymous: why do I want anyone to be able to see my transaction history?

- decentralised: why is this good? Imagine a world where the web is controlled by a single entity, say Facebook. They get to decide who is allowed to create a website. They get to decide how much it cost. If they're not happy with the site's content, they can take it offline. Do you believe that would be a better world to live in? - trustless: I trust the companies I use, it works That's because there's usually no al…

> you may find that it is less risky or costly. Many people chose e2e encrypted messengers because they don't trust a third party with their private messages

Private messages are not money. Example: you ordered some goods and those arrived in bad shape. What's your recourse in the trustless world?

Re: The Lightning Network: Turning Bitcoin into Money

#179
post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

but what's the benefit of these? - decentralised: why is this good? - trustless: I trust the companies I use, it works - censure resistance: OK, fringe case for most - pseudonymous: why do I want anyone to be able to see my transaction history?

> The root problem with conventional currency is all the trust that's required to make it work. The central bank must be trusted not to debase the currency, but the history of fiat currencies is full of breaches of that trust. Banks must be trusted to hold our money and transfer it electronically, but they lend it out in waves of credit bubbles with barely a fraction in reserve. We have to trust them with our privacy…

> Satoshi, 2009-02-11

Yes. Because society is built in trust. Something crypto world is busy rediscovering.

Re: The Lightning Network: Turning Bitcoin into Money

#180
post #4

from the introduction: >The development of the Lightning Network may have consequences for welfare. First, as Bitcoin becomes a more efficient payments system, users are better off. Their transactions settle more quickly and more cheaply (Zimmerman (2020)). Second, since fewer transactions need to be recorded on the blockchain, less memory and energy are needed to run a Bitcoin node. This saving lowers the cost of ma…

> Second, since fewer transactions need to be recorded on the blockchain, less memory and energy are needed to run a Bitcoin node.

The vast majority of energy consumed by the bitcoin network is in mining, and that's not impacted by any of this.

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