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Ask HN: Has anyone here worked on the Windows kernel?

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Re: Ask HN: Has anyone here worked on the Windows kernel?

#21

Post by Aloha »

MAGZine wrote: post #10
beebmam wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see how the analogy is applicable. To illustrate what I mean, you could have also said: "K8s is like a train. It's big and heavy, will carry most things that you need it to", and it would be just as much of a non sequitur. Analogies are usually worthless to an argument (and therefore should be worthless to your opinions), unless one is able to demonstrate why thinking about an idea with an analogy is applicab…

What pendantry is this? The only thing that you could take away from OP's comment is that they made a metaphor, and since you can make a metaphor about anything, the chosen metaphor says nothing? That's like saying, well, you can use words to construct a lie, therefore, all words are untrustworthy. He's saying that k8s can be powerful, but that that power can be destructive if not wielded correctly. Personally? k8s i…

I think you're right.

K8's (and other similar tools) allow you to push complexity into places that are harder to troubleshoot. Its another layer of abstraction, and too much abstraction is dangerous in complex systems.

Re: Ask HN: Has anyone here worked on the Windows kernel?

#23

Post by itisme »

The answers you will get here at HN will mostly be misplaced hatred against Microsoft, from people who hate MS, because someone else here at HN hates MS.

I think what you should do is, if possible, arrange for a short call with some of the team mates that you are going to work with. Just a casual one about how the kernel team day to day work looks like there. If not with the team, then maybe with your manager.

Unless someone from that team or some ex-kernel team member replies here, all the rest of these posts are just speculative and not worth basing your decision on.

Re: Ask HN: Has anyone here worked on the Windows kernel?

#24

Post by beebmam »

MAGZine wrote: post #10
beebmam wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see how the analogy is applicable. To illustrate what I mean, you could have also said: "K8s is like a train. It's big and heavy, will carry most things that you need it to", and it would be just as much of a non sequitur. Analogies are usually worthless to an argument (and therefore should be worthless to your opinions), unless one is able to demonstrate why thinking about an idea with an analogy is applicab…

What pendantry is this? The only thing that you could take away from OP's comment is that they made a metaphor, and since you can make a metaphor about anything, the chosen metaphor says nothing? That's like saying, well, you can use words to construct a lie, therefore, all words are untrustworthy. He's saying that k8s can be powerful, but that that power can be destructive if not wielded correctly. Personally? k8s i…

That's not what I'm saying.

I said that saying K8s is like X requires that you show how it is like X first, before you can draw any conclusions from that analogy. Otherwise, it is not an argument and should have zero value in a conversation, other than someone stating their (unsupported) opinion.

Re: Ask HN: Has anyone here worked on the Windows kernel?

#25

Post by jiggawatts »

Firmwarrior wrote: post #11

Microsoft is a friggin dumpster fire, dude. Some teams are great to work for, but a LOT of them are little crews of treacherous rogues who're only looking out for themselves and always ready to stab someone in the back. You'll run into a lot of the same issues on the Windows kernel that you're getting irritated with in service development land. A lot of infrastructure is already out there, but figuring out how to use…

> think that if you want to make the big bucks but still work with c/c++

Judging by the presenters at CPPCon, a significant fraction of highly-skilled and highly-paid C++ devs are employed in the High Frequency Trading (HFT) industry.

They meet OP's criteria in many ways as well, as HFT trading tends to be "very close to the metal", optimised to death, and often involves solving deep technical problems. It's diametrically opposed to modern web development practices.

Re: Ask HN: Has anyone here worked on the Windows kernel?

#26

Post by ccrush »

KerrAvon wrote: post #13

If MS or any FAANG wants to hire you for a kernel dev position, go for it; they clearly see a lot of potential in you that maybe you don't see yourself. I want to point out a couple of things that you should be prepared for: > 2. Debugging exclusively via metrics and logs, since I can't just attach a debugger to a running server. You often can't do this in kernel/OS development work either. Serial printf logging is o…

Can you no longer use windbg to attach to a running kernel on a remote box, and debug the remote box from your development machine? I believe that's how kernel debugging is generally done.

Re: Ask HN: Has anyone here worked on the Windows kernel?

#28

Post by oldmanhorton »

I've worked adjacent to windows for a few years, and it's not perfect. They have mountains of legacy requirements by the very nature of being windows and other comments about siloed culture can often be true, though I think this is true in most large companies. With that being said, windows kernel developers are by and large extremely skilled and passionate, and working on that team is pretty unique within most of software engineering - rarely do you have the ability to impact so many people.

The concern for me would be the fact that windows is no longer a fully offline experience running on people's desks. A large part of the kernel team is working on features that only benefit Azure and you may get some of the same services exposure there as you claim to be so burnt out on.

Asking to discuss the role more with the team to get a better sense of what they're doing, how they're doing it, and who their customers are seems like the path forward IMO.

Re: Ask HN: Has anyone here worked on the Windows kernel?

#29

Post by keithnz »

I once interviewed a guy who worked on various parts of the core windows, naturally being curious I asked a lot of questions about it. I think it would be an interesting experience, but ultimately it seemed very constrained in terms of what you can do, decision making is quite constrained etc. It sounded like you would end up very very focused. Which might be your thing. The guy I interviewed was wanting a lot more freedom. In the embedded world, there's lots of opportunities for low level programming.

Re: Ask HN: Has anyone here worked on the Windows kernel?

#30

Post by notJim »

greggsy wrote: post #19
Firmwarrior wrote: post #11

Microsoft is a friggin dumpster fire, dude. Some teams are great to work for, but a LOT of them are little crews of treacherous rogues who're only looking out for themselves and always ready to stab someone in the back. You'll run into a lot of the same issues on the Windows kernel that you're getting irritated with in service development land. A lot of infrastructure is already out there, but figuring out how to use…

You basically described any workplace in a large company. Organisations are systems made of loosely interconnected and dependent systems, made up of people. The complexity of business norms, personality and cultural differences, and unrealistic expectations around business processes can be difficult to reign in inside a global company. Some workplaces have worked out a sweet spot, balancing people, HR, tools, culture…

I really disagree with this idea, we shouldn't normalize every workplace being full of back-stabbers and retaliatory jerk managers. Nor is horrible red tape a given, although some bureaucracy is of course required. None of this has been my experience at fairly large, well-known companies, although I'm definitely aware of cases where it has happened to friends.
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