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Ethereum Proof-of-Stake

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Re: Ethereum Proof-of-Stake

#331

Post by ShamelessC »

yellowapple wrote: post #330
ShamelessC wrote: post #329

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you prove any of those things is actually happening with the sort of regularity you’re implying? Preferably without linking to coinbase articles?

https://restofworld.org/2021/crypto-remittances/ https://coinflip.tech/blog/how-cryptocurrency-is-aiding-ukra... https://www.forbes.com/sites/rogerhuang/2020/10/19/dissident... Your turn: prove your assertion that cryptocurrencies "seem" to be used exclusively by bad people.

I never said that. I said it was my read of the parent comment. Further, it’s a comment about perceptions (“seems”), not a deliberate statement of fact.

It’s more like saying “I can’t recommend this to anyone because the legitimate use cases (if there are any) dont offset the potential for abuse (particularly in societies with an existing, trusted banking infrastructure).

Re: Ethereum Proof-of-Stake

#332

Post by yellowapple »

ShamelessC wrote: post #331
yellowapple wrote: post #330

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://restofworld.org/2021/crypto-remittances/ https://coinflip.tech/blog/how-cryptocurrency-is-aiding-ukra... https://www.forbes.com/sites/rogerhuang/2020/10/19/dissident... Your turn: prove your assertion that cryptocurrencies "seem" to be used exclusively by bad people.

I never said that. I said it was my read of the parent comment. Further, it’s a comment about perceptions (“seems”), not a deliberate statement of fact. It’s more like saying “I can’t recommend this to anyone because the legitimate use cases (if there are any) dont offset the potential for abuse (particularly in societies with an existing, trusted banking infrastructure).

> I never said that. I said it was my read of the parent comment.

Fair enough. Regardless...

> It’s more like saying “I can’t recommend this to anyone because the legitimate use cases (if there are any) dont offset the potential for abuse (particularly in societies with an existing, trusted banking infrastructure).

And in saying that, one betrays either a severe ignorance of reality or a vested interest in the continued marginalization of the very people to whom that "existing, trusted banking infrastructure" currently does more harm than good. There are legitimate use cases and they vastly offset any abuse (potential or otherwise), even in (ostensibly) "developed" economies like here in the US.

Not to mention that said "existing, trusted banking infrastructure" conflates its definition of "abuse" with "whatever the current local regime deems illegal"; as one of many examples, it seems rather plausible (if not probable) for anti-abortion states to start seizing assets from the bank accounts of women who solicit the services of abortion clinics - something which any cryptocurrency worth its salt is explicitly designed to prevent. And don't get me started on the can of worms overturning Roe v. Wade just opened; GSRMs, contraceptive customers/vendors, and other folks previously enjoying that implied right to privacy are now suddenly much more vulnerable to the same economic exile that sex workers and drug users/suppliers have already long faced. Talk about "potential for abuse"!

Re: Ethereum Proof-of-Stake

#333

Post by ShamelessC »

yellowapple wrote: post #332
ShamelessC wrote: post #331

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I never said that. I said it was my read of the parent comment. Further, it’s a comment about perceptions (“seems”), not a deliberate statement of fact. It’s more like saying “I can’t recommend this to anyone because the legitimate use cases (if there are any) dont offset the potential for abuse (particularly in societies with an existing, trusted banking infrastructure).

> I never said that. I said it was my read of the parent comment. Fair enough. Regardless... > It’s more like saying “I can’t recommend this to anyone because the legitimate use cases (if there are any) dont offset the potential for abuse (particularly in societies with an existing, trusted banking infrastructure). And in saying that, one betrays either a severe ignorance of reality or a vested interest in the contin…

Ah, and now “I’m a bad person?” for not jumping on your bandwagon which promises so much but delivers so little.

If you really think cryptocurrency can help with abortion access - stfu and get to work, no need to virtue signal when you have a working system.

In the meantime, things like Biden’s recent executive action to enable purchase of birth control across state lines is far more likely to actually be helpful.

You have to at least realize that the defenses you’re making are the same ones that a jaded libertarian might make and have very little to do with the actual tech, which is too complicated to usefully describe anyway. This paired with the underlying belief-oriented nature of cryptocurrency (e.g. “it has value because we all agree it does”) makes it effectively a neo-libertarian political movement, using self-rolled (objectively worse) “patreon” as its backer.

Re: Ethereum Proof-of-Stake

#334

Post by yellowapple »

ShamelessC wrote: post #333
yellowapple wrote: post #332

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I never said that. I said it was my read of the parent comment. Fair enough. Regardless... > It’s more like saying “I can’t recommend this to anyone because the legitimate use cases (if there are any) dont offset the potential for abuse (particularly in societies with an existing, trusted banking infrastructure). And in saying that, one betrays either a severe ignorance of reality or a vested interest in the contin…

Ah, and now “I’m a bad person?” for not jumping on your bandwagon which promises so much but delivers so little. If you really think cryptocurrency can help with abortion access - stfu and get to work, no need to virtue signal when you have a working system. In the meantime, things like Biden’s recent executive action to enable purchase of birth control across state lines is far more likely to actually be helpful. Yo…

> Ah, and now “I’m a bad person?” for not jumping on your bandwagon which promises so much but delivers so little.

I mean, if you're opposed to cryptocurrencies even after it's been shown to you both how they currently benefit marginalized groups and how they can potentially benefit yet more marginalized groups, then that does indeed say something about the quality of your character. I wouldn't go so far as to write you off as a "bad person", but I would hope that you reflect on whether one's desire to continue the marginalization of said groups on the basis of "North Korea bad" might preclude one being a "good person".

> If you really think cryptocurrency can help with abortion access - stfu and get to work

If I was qualified to administer abortions, then I absolutely would.

> In the meantime, things like Biden’s recent executive action to enable purchase of birth control across state lines is far more likely to actually be helpful.

Sure, until the same Supreme Court that was willing to overturn Roe v. Wade decides it's willing to invalidate such an EO.

> You have to at least realize that the defenses you’re making are the same ones that a jaded libertarian might make

Well I would hope so, being a jaded libertarian and all ;)

Re: Ethereum Proof-of-Stake

#335

Post by Vecr »

whatisweb3 wrote: post #307
Vecr wrote: post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, but OP is not talking about theft, OP is talking about someone (with possible short interest) creating havoc by causing people's staking nodes to behave in a bad way caused them to be slashed. You can't get the money they lost (it's gone for good), but you might be able to profit of a short position, or with a more sophisticated scheme, a resulting fork.

I see - I am sure those sort of attacks will happen. If you secure thousands of ETH in a single validator and are tied with something that could be shorted - such as a company and its stock or token - then your situation is just as vulnerable to attack as keeping your cold wallet in your home's safe. Somebody could break into your house and either coerce you to provide the staking keys, or crack the device, or find a…

You might be able to create enough havoc in the staking system to cause a fork, and you might be able to preposition buy and sell orders (selling very early on the fork you don't favor, not selling on the one you do favor, and using the money you made by selling to buy more in the fork you favor as soon as possible, possibly from an automatic market that springs up within minutes. You would then use your position to make money as the price of the fork rises, closing out all positions before the whole thing goes down again.)

Re: Ethereum Proof-of-Stake

#336

Post by nailer »

mike00632 wrote: post #276
yellowapple wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sanctions are toothless without the implied threat of violence should said sanctions be ignored.

Quick reminder that the sanctions only exist because of the express threats of violence.

Nah. If you violate my sanctions I just won't do business with you.

Re: Ethereum Proof-of-Stake

#337

Post by ETH_start »

throwaway290 wrote: post #325
ETH_start wrote: post #323

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those with the most power can legalize everything they do. The monopoly on violence wielded by the government tends to concentrate power. Mass-surveillance of financial transactions, or conversely, lack of private money, extends the reach of the government, and with it, the ability of the most powerful to extract resources from the general population. Those in the centers of power don't need to launder money. They wr…

> Those in the centers of power don't need to launder money. Oh yes they do. Read about all the ways dictators and their friends wash ill-gained riches in the West to buy real estate, enjoy lavish lifestyle, finance activities that undermine democracies and further their own agenda, etc. Sanctions exist for a reason. You can't have anonymity without enabling crime and laundering. In a digital world where you need les…

It's only the dictators of banana republics, which by definition are not great power states, which need to engage in that kind of corruption, and only because they don't wield government power within the largest economies, where they would prefer to park their wealth due to their centrality and stability.

Those at the top of the political order within the centers global economic power have no need to engage something as crude as money laundering, or at least not the kind that depends on clandestine exchanges of briefcases filled with cash. Everything is reported and ostensibly legal.

>>You can't have anonymity without enabling crime and laundering.

You can very much combat crime without warrantless mass-surveillance of private financial transactions. Real crime leaves huge numbers of evidence trails that can be followed. Private electronic cash can also be utilized by law enforcement to incentivize informants to come forward anonymously.

Warrantless mass-surveillance enables tyranny. It enables the kind of systemic repression that can harm billions of people.

Re: Ethereum Proof-of-Stake

#338

Post by snapcaster »

lazzlazzlazz wrote: post #286
snapcaster wrote: post #71

I'm going to be really impressed and surprised if this ends up working (moving ETH to PoS). I'm still fairly skeptical. It seems like PoS has so many issues that come up with additional complexity being added to handle them. Worried it's increasing the attack surface too much and making a system that's not going to be able to be secured. That being said, I hope it works but it's been "two months from merge" for 5 yea…

I have been professionally close to the situation for more than four years, and it has never been "two months from the Merge" before. It was expected to be in about four years about five years ago. That's the most it's been delayed so far, which is impressive in my view given how much novel research has been required. For anyone curious about an academic explanation of the problems being solved by ETH 2.0's consensus…

I'm not closely involved, and was speaking a little off the cuff referencing the perceptions given by casual observers by the hype crowd. Thanks for the info will read the paper linked
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