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U.S. News pulls Columbia University from its 2022 rankings

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Re: U.S. News pulls Columbia University from its 2022 rankings

#221

Post by mlinsey »

ketzo wrote: post #16
function_seven wrote: post #9

In the same way that one restaurant flouted Yelp ratings[1], couldn't all the Ivy League schools just refuse to participate in US News' annual rankings? What would happen if Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Columbia, et. al. decided that this ranking is not helpful, so they won't supply any info? Readers of US News would more likely start to lose trust in the rankings rather than move their assessments of the Ivies downward…

But it’s a prisoner’s dilemma situation, right? If none of the Ivy’s are on US News, well, it’s probably a shitty ranking. But if e.g. just Penn falls off the list… most people are just gonna assume that Penn got worse.

This is why it is really just Harvard (likely Stanford, Yale, and Princeton too, but definitely Harvard) that can make a statement boycotting the list, just like a billionaire can get away with wearing a plastic $10 watch but mere millionaires feel the need to wear a Rolex to show off their money. In fact, it wouldn't surprise me if Harvard did the least to game the US News metrics of any top 25 university, because the US News staff would just tweak their formula to keep Harvard in the top 5 regardless.

Re: U.S. News pulls Columbia University from its 2022 rankings

#222

Post by cpitman »

rayiner wrote: post #196
corrral wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Stanford is surely the most prestigious general-purpose university west of, well, Harvard. Is that no longer Yale? From the perspective of someone who had a rather poor exposure to universities during my high school years—so, precisely what someone gets from pop-culture and osmosis without anyone in particular acting as a guide—my impression was that Harvard and Yale were unambiguously the Big Two, and everything e…

Yeah, there’s some “new gold rush money” thinking going on in this thread. Harvard has had 5 US Presidents. Yale has had 3. Stanford has had just one. Not a single Supreme Court justice went to Stanford. 4 went to Yale and 4 went to Harvard. Stanford tied with Harvard for 6 Senators in the 117th Congress, impressively, but obviously Harvard dominates that metric over a longer time. Harvard still has more than twice a…

Not taking a side on this, but those are all heavily lagging indicators. IE, those are all almost 30 years after college. The current ranking can be highly different from what it was a generation ago.

Re: U.S. News pulls Columbia University from its 2022 rankings

#223

Post by smugma »

eduction wrote: post #175
hackyhacky wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your suspicion is correct. I've taught at several US universities, and it's an open secret that the administrative takes steps to manipulate numbers in order to secure better rankings. Typical example: a small, prestigious liberal arts college always has smaller class sizes in the fall semester than in the spring semester. Why? Because classes with less than 30 students are ranked higher by US News, but they only tak…

I attended a well known and regarded public university. I was admitted for spring, and for the preceding fall entered a program where I could live in a regular university dorm and take classes for full credit taught at the same university’s extension, but special extension classes just for this program (so all spring admit students). Then you stay in the dorm in spring as you become a “regular” student. I always susp…

Berkeley has been doing this for at least 35 years.

Re: U.S. News pulls Columbia University from its 2022 rankings

#224

Post by smugma »

bredren wrote: post #193
hackyhacky wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your suspicion is correct. I've taught at several US universities, and it's an open secret that the administrative takes steps to manipulate numbers in order to secure better rankings. Typical example: a small, prestigious liberal arts college always has smaller class sizes in the fall semester than in the spring semester. Why? Because classes with less than 30 students are ranked higher by US News, but they only tak…

I TA'd in the attendance office at my high school back in the day. The city's tracking of student attendance only lasted a portion of the year or a portion of each quarter. During those times, much more effort went into calling the homes of missing students and finding out why they were not showing up to class. I remember asking about why all the calls were happening or not happening and it was sort of quietly explai…

In California, schools get paid on daily attendance. I believe it would be considered fraud to not take daily attendance. They suspended this during the heart of the pandemic but it came back last fall. Because daily attendance is down relative to pre pandemic, Public schools are facing a significant revenue gap (5-10% is typical)

Re: U.S. News pulls Columbia University from its 2022 rankings

#226

Post by robotresearcher »

thaumasiotes wrote: post #154
dhosek wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apparently there’s a common application thing now where you can apply to large numbers of schools for undergrad without spending large amounts of money.

The common application just means you don't have to fill out unique admission forms for every school. You still pay an application fee to every school.

In some other countries there's a national system with a single modest fee. In the UK this is 'UCAS'[1], a nonprofit org. You apply once, and indicate your top N (say, 5) favorite school+program. The applications are sent to the schools, and they can make you an offer.

If not accepted for any of them, there's a follow-up matchmaking service (called 'clearing' in the UK) to help find an unallocated spot.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UCAS

Re: U.S. News pulls Columbia University from its 2022 rankings

#227

Post by boc »

corrral wrote: post #126
gnicholas wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd give Stanford a bit more credit than this, but people I know who were admitted to both all went to Harvard. Stanford is surely the most prestigious general-purpose university west of, well, Harvard.

> Stanford is surely the most prestigious general-purpose university west of, well, Harvard. Is that no longer Yale? From the perspective of someone who had a rather poor exposure to universities during my high school years—so, precisely what someone gets from pop-culture and osmosis without anyone in particular acting as a guide—my impression was that Harvard and Yale were unambiguously the Big Two, and everything e…

You're forgetting Princeton, which is almost always grouped together with Harvard and Yale to form "the Big Three"[1]

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Three_(colleges)

Re: U.S. News pulls Columbia University from its 2022 rankings

#228

Post by waylandsmithers »

sam-2727 wrote: post #94

The beginning of the conclusion of the original study [1] is worth repeating: No one should try to reform or rehabilitate the ranking. It is irredeemable. In Colin Diver’s memorable formulation, “Trying to rank institutions of higher education is a little like trying to rank religions or philosophies. The entire enterprise is flawed, not only in detail but also in conception.” Students are poorly served by rankings.…

I couldn’t agree more. The schools I got into were ranked something like 12, 13, 25, and 30. I went to 12 for only that reason and always regretted it. Was it my own dumb fault? Of course. I was 17.

Re: U.S. News pulls Columbia University from its 2022 rankings

#229

Post by hobo_in_library »

Fomite wrote: post #195
hackyhacky wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your suspicion is correct. I've taught at several US universities, and it's an open secret that the administrative takes steps to manipulate numbers in order to secure better rankings. Typical example: a small, prestigious liberal arts college always has smaller class sizes in the fall semester than in the spring semester. Why? Because classes with less than 30 students are ranked higher by US News, but they only tak…

Similarly, at a large land grant university, we talk a lot about improving our rankings, but acknowledge that one of the major metrics (% of students not accepted) is something that's contrary to our mission. It was an open secret when I was in Boston that Harvard actively encourages people to "give it a shot" when they know full well they're not getting in to boost that metric.

Acceptance rates is a really poor choice of input for college ranking

It's basically saying "other people seem to think this college is good, so we'll nudge them up a few points"

In other words, it's attempting to measure public perception about the college instead of the actual results it produces. How the public _thinks_ a certain college is shouldn't factor into how good you _tell_ the public that that college performs

Re: U.S. News pulls Columbia University from its 2022 rankings

#230

Post by tobinfricke »

smugma wrote: post #223
eduction wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I attended a well known and regarded public university. I was admitted for spring, and for the preceding fall entered a program where I could live in a regular university dorm and take classes for full credit taught at the same university’s extension, but special extension classes just for this program (so all spring admit students). Then you stay in the dorm in spring as you become a “regular” student. I always susp…

Berkeley has been doing this for at least 35 years.

Yup, I got into Berkeley EECS this way back in the late 20th century. I'd guess it's legitimate load-balancing rather than an attempt to game the ratings. I assumed this meant that my application was borderline and I was grateful to be able to sneak in. The Extension program is a nice transition to college too.
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