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People from elite backgrounds increasingly dominate academia, data shows

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Re: People from elite backgrounds increasingly dominate academia, data shows

#301

Post by eternalban »

alexpotato wrote: post #213

This story is decidedly anecdata, even personal, but I think it's illustrative of what's going on in certain fields. - Had a friend who has multiple graduate level degrees in architecture related sub-specialties e.g. architecture criticism etc - HN being what it is, I will mention that the pay for most of the jobs you would get with the above is zero or near zero. - There is also a dramatic oversupply of candidates f…

> Why? The thought is that a museum hires the child of a hedge fund manager, there is a non-zero chance the wealthy parent will give or leave money to the institution when they die

That's a thought. But it smells, unsurprisingly, as petit-bourgeoise thought, where "money" is the end all be all of social striving. So another thought is that a certain class insists that it is the rightful keeper (a whiff of the divine right of kings here btw) of cultural lights and direction of "civilization". And naturally, these cultural shepherds are nurtured generationally in institutions that were created by their forebears. MoMA for example, is a Rockefeller institution.

Anyway, food for "thought".

Re: People from elite backgrounds increasingly dominate academia, data shows

#302

Post by lordnacho »

ProjectArcturis wrote: post #269
meetingthrower wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can confirm. Just went to open days at Oxford and Cambridge with my son. We are Americans. Both my wife and I are double ivy grads. Totally different than the US and much more meritocratic. Steps are: 1. Be qualified to apply. In UK this means at least AAA if not more. Varies by course. US equivalent is have at least three 5s on AP and above 1450 on SAT. This is roughly equivalent to top 10% of uk graduates. 2. Take…

>This really separates the grinders vs the smart kids as the tests are based on what you intend to study, but most are more intelligence based and cannot necessarily be prepped for. Can you expand on that? I would be amazed to find tests that truly measure intelligence and where your score doesn't improve with practice.

Not sure I agree with it. I think you get a lot of Asian kids passing because they teach a lot of advanced things in their education system that are just beyond the curriculum in the West. Thus when it comes time to ask the clever questions, some kids already know the answer.

I think in general people who know the answer to something misjudge how hard it is to figure out from first principles.

Re: People from elite backgrounds increasingly dominate academia, data shows

#303

Post by blobbers »

TrackerFF wrote: post #167
blobbers wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't believe this comment hasn't been downvoted into oblivion, but I tend to agree. It's a markov model. Educated people care about educating their children. Uneducated either a) want their kid to be the first to reach higher education (but struggle to do so or b) don't value education. Pretty rare to find a well educated person who places no value on education. Guys like Peter Thiel (educated, but promote non-tra…

While this is a very inflamed area of discussion, there's a considerable portion of right-wing politicians - even some with degrees from prestigious school - that are becoming more and more hostile against education. It is current day anti-intellectualism. Nothing new, but unfortunately not dead either.

Education in the broadest sense isn’t all positive. It comes at a cost of time and money. There are certainly institutions and endeavors that might not have a yield on the time and money spent. For profit colleges capitalizing on student loans are not a good thing for society.

Re: People from elite backgrounds increasingly dominate academia, data shows

#304

Post by Nasrudith »

matthewdgreen wrote: post #292
xhkkffbf wrote: post #285

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It all depends what kind of crap you talk. There are plenty of things you just can't say and tenure won't protect you when they come for you. Ask Joshua Katz, formerly of Princeton. He complained very publicly and they dug up an old crime and tried him again. Suddenly the old crime that was punishable with a suspension before is now bad enough to merit firing. Note: I'm not speaking to the merits of how Princeton or…

From what I understand, Joshua Katz had a sexual relationship with one of his undergraduate students and behaved inappropriately with several others. When the matter was first being investigated he contacted the student directly and then failed to disclose this fact to the investigators, who then learned about it when the student filed a new complaint. I know it is fashionable to say this is about Katz's "speech" but…

What disturbs me most is that Princeton acts right out of the dictator playbook - knowingly keep corrupt people with serious oustable offenses on staff to have them pre-blackmailed.

To be frank this is the behavior which allows for mass sex abuse rings. Also something which statues of limitations, even not made for this purpose (limitations of investigative capabilities are more likely reason). It would still be a good fit. It is an admittedly bizzare and perverse phenomena thatnthe best defense against abuse in a judicial system has been to let the guilty go free for misconduct of others.

Re: People from elite backgrounds increasingly dominate academia, data shows

#305

Post by nicwolff »

make3 wrote: post #300
3pt14159 wrote: post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a decidedly personal, anecdotal story too, but I think it's illustrative of some of the reasons to hope for the world. I was dating someone that was a civil engineer and she absolutely hated the constant sexual harassment that happens on construction sites in Canada. She came from a poor family that fled Russia as the Soviet Union was collapsing. I told her I could teach her tech in one month. Whatever she wa…

hopefully she won't also get sexually harassed in tech

Compared to construction? Almost literally impossible.

Re: People from elite backgrounds increasingly dominate academia, data shows

#306

Post by IdiocyInAction »

throwaway0a5e wrote: post #264
lumost wrote: post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pretty much, We don't talk about it as often as we should - but post dot-com Software was a bad place to be. There was general fear that outsourcing to India would do to software what outsourcing to China was doing for Manufacturing. These fears culminated in an under-supply of CS majors through the 2000s and an oversupply of various "business" degrees. The assumed "ideal path" was to be in management so as not to be…

>accountants/financiers/managers All of these professions do just fine, even the ones in which there's "oversupply". What these professions don't provide is readily available opportunity for someone of substantially below median intelligence and work ethic to make a very nice living with little more than token effort as is the case in software, or any other "hot" industry (in a cooler industry they plateau much close…

> substantially below median intelligence and work ethic to make a very nice living with little more than token effort as is the case in software

I disagree that you can make a nice living room with "substantially below median intelligence" in software. Getting into FAANG+ is hard and plenty of people never even finish their degree or get a related job.

I think you have no idea what people with "substantially below median intelligence" are like.

Re: People from elite backgrounds increasingly dominate academia, data shows

#307

Post by tehsauce »

ethav0 wrote: post #253
UncleMeat wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Academics" usually means "university faculty or people working in research labs." These people tend to make low wages compared to typical industry positions. PhDs also don't tend to open too many doors in industry. At the major tech companies, they are roughly equivalent to 3-6 years of industry experience. They might make a resume more attractive, but you end up going through the same hiring process and largely wor…

But this is discluding those who work in academic research labs for major tech companies.

The number of people working in academic research labs for major tech companies is probably on the order of 1% of all PhDs.

Re: People from elite backgrounds increasingly dominate academia, data shows

#308

Post by slt2021 »

lapcat wrote: post #205
RickJWagner wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's one of the reasons I oppose taxpayer-funded debt dismissal. It's just not right to ask low-income taxpayers (including those who didn't go to college) to pay off the debts of those who did go-- and have a higher earnings potential. It's also a great dis-service to those who have paid into Social Security for decades and now face a looming shortfall. Those people actually paid in and are going to have to deal w…

> It's just not right to ask low-income taxpayers (including those who didn't go to college) Low-income people don't actually pay much taxes. In fact their primary tax payment may be the fixed-rate Social Security FICA that you mention, not the progressive income taxes after deductions and credits. Moreover, what about the low-income student who have to go into debt to go to school, while the rich kids have their par…

this is not true. PhD coursework qualifies for Masters degree. Almost all PhD dropouts (on 1-2 year) - dropout with masters degree and a very nice industry job offer in hand.

Re: People from elite backgrounds increasingly dominate academia, data shows

#309

Post by frognumber »

abeppu wrote: post #84
frognumber wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been affiliated with MIT in one way or another for more than a quarter-century. What's been astounding is the change in faculty. Historically, MIT faculty were nerds into neat tech problems. New MIT faculty are slick politicians with an increasing sleazy Enron-style vibe. That's true of MIT leadership as well.

Can you elaborate on what "Enron-style vibe" means when describing university faculty?

- Academic fraud

- Clever financial schemes and complex conflicts-of-interest

- Incredible salesmanship relative to the amount of substance

- ... and so on.

I've seen criminal activity there too (which I can't elaborate on), but I suspect the Institute is waiting for an Enron-style collapse. It will be a soft landing. The endowment is obscene at this point; the Institute can weather a lot.

Re: People from elite backgrounds increasingly dominate academia, data shows

#310

Post by systemBuilder »

I got an engineering job at a top-30 EE dept (UBC). By the pay was really poor - i once had an elite dad but he died when i was 13. So I quit the job, as I was no longer elite. An elite family can backstop you when you are taking a low-paying academic job in an expensive city.

The thought that poor people would go for a professor job is no true. I believe most poor people would much rather have money to help their family, money to bank for security, money to pay back their student loans, money to start a family life, etc.

Also it's worth pointing out that academia is a huge pyramid scheme and jumping to the next rung of the pyramid can be made much much easier if your mentors (ie your parents) know which tricks to use to make the greatest leap possible.

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