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People from elite backgrounds increasingly dominate academia, data shows

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Re: People from elite backgrounds increasingly dominate academia, data shows

#271

Post by Mezzie »

matthewdgreen wrote: post #267
Mezzie wrote: post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Academia just isn't WORTH it for talented peasants (speaking as one). I had people encouraging me to go into academia since I was 4-5 years old, had a desire to go be a professor, etc. But things have changed a lot since I was a child 30 years ago. Now, if I were to go into academia without family or other connections, I'm looking at: - Unstable employment and a serious amount of overwork. At the end of this I may ge…

> Restrictions on what I can say Academia isn't perfect and it sure isn't what it once was. But go ahead and talk crap about your corporate employer for the next six months and see what happens to you.

I'm a freelancer + work in the non-profit space; I don't do corporate work. Which is also on purpose. ;)

The difference is that corporate work never had the pretense of offering me intellectual freedom, whereas academia did. At least if I go corporate, they'll buy my silence with resources/$$$.

Academia? So you want to give me nothing AND restrict what I can say? That's going to be a hard pass.

Re: People from elite backgrounds increasingly dominate academia, data shows

#272

Post by matthewdgreen »

junofan wrote: post #180
gnicholas wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think your analysis mixes up college degrees and graduate degrees. 'College degree' refers to a 4-year BA/BS, whereas 'graduate degree' typically refers to a PhD, Master's degree, or professional degree (JD/MD/MBA).

Yeah GP seems to be missing something. PhD programs at top schools are somewhat hereditary at this point. It’s so competitive and there’s too much stuff to just know how to do; spending time with a family member who’s done it before is a huge leg up vs. figuring it out on your own.

It's also an extremely stupid thing to do financially, in almost every case. There are intangible benefits to it, but you need someone coaching you on them in order to accept the choice to actually halve (or more) your income. (Take it from a 2nd generation PhD who has halved his salary being a professor vs. working in industry.)

Re: People from elite backgrounds increasingly dominate academia, data shows

#273

Post by sicp-enjoyer »

SketchySeaBeast wrote: post #238
marcinzm wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>best bet for your future The best bet for the future is to pick a career path that is not massively over supplied with candidates. Once you get to that situation there's no system that will not cause most everyone to be unhappy.

That game will get worse over time as people optimize for it too. It'll be a matter of trying to guess what's going to be in demand but not so in demand that people are training for it because they are also trying to choose a career that's in demand. And as usual, those with the better information and means to switch paths or take multiple shots will be the ones who can come out ahead.

Actually I think those who come out the most ahead are those interested in the field, even when nobody else is. It seems a better strategy than trend hoping is to find something you like, that can plausibly be useful and invest in that.

Re: People from elite backgrounds increasingly dominate academia, data shows

#275

Post by jiveturkey42 »

blobbers wrote: post #46
oxff wrote: post #40

> People from elite backgrounds increasingly dominate academia Even if your system was pure Meritocracy that'd make 16th century Anglos proud, you'd still expect it to eventually come to this (smart people have smart kids, dumb people have dumb kids)

I can't believe this comment hasn't been downvoted into oblivion, but I tend to agree. It's a markov model. Educated people care about educating their children. Uneducated either a) want their kid to be the first to reach higher education (but struggle to do so or b) don't value education. Pretty rare to find a well educated person who places no value on education. Guys like Peter Thiel (educated, but promote non-tra…

Downvoted because 16th century Britain was anything but a Meritocracy, and throwing around cliches about demographics and history lowers the value of a discussion

Re: People from elite backgrounds increasingly dominate academia, data shows

#276

Post by sicp-enjoyer »

httpz wrote: post #57

Going into academia is usually not the best way to maximize your financial earning potential. So usually people who go into academia value pursuit of knowledge over money. Academics tend to raise children with those values.

> value pursuit of knowledge over money

Or status over money, similar to upper-class careers in journalism.

Re: People from elite backgrounds increasingly dominate academia, data shows

#277

Post by matthewdgreen »

Mezzie wrote: post #271
matthewdgreen wrote: post #267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Restrictions on what I can say Academia isn't perfect and it sure isn't what it once was. But go ahead and talk crap about your corporate employer for the next six months and see what happens to you.

I'm a freelancer + work in the non-profit space; I don't do corporate work. Which is also on purpose. ;) The difference is that corporate work never had the pretense of offering me intellectual freedom, whereas academia did. At least if I go corporate, they'll buy my silence with resources/$$$. Academia? So you want to give me nothing AND restrict what I can say? That's going to be a hard pass.

I have to push back against this since I have some personal experience here. As a (non-tenure-track) research assistant professor I got into a major argument with a dean at my University over a specific speech issue re: the NSA and Snowden leaks [1]. (The NSA is also a major funder of [part] of my University.) I was prepared to be fired when I refused to go along with the University's request: I was not fired, and instead I've been promoted. I don't think there are very many other institutions where I could have expected this outcome.

Yes, my story is just one data point. But all important speech issues are just a few datapoints. It's absolutely critical for our society that there be real institutions where policy critics can survive. Until someone builds an alternative home for policy criticism (and no, consulting for non-profits isn't it) I'm going to stand by the academic system... however imperfect it is.

[1] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/sep/10/johns-hopkins-...

Re: People from elite backgrounds increasingly dominate academia, data shows

#278

Post by SketchySeaBeast »

sicp-enjoyer wrote: post #273
SketchySeaBeast wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That game will get worse over time as people optimize for it too. It'll be a matter of trying to guess what's going to be in demand but not so in demand that people are training for it because they are also trying to choose a career that's in demand. And as usual, those with the better information and means to switch paths or take multiple shots will be the ones who can come out ahead.

Actually I think those who come out the most ahead are those interested in the field, even when nobody else is. It seems a better strategy than trend hoping is to find something you like, that can plausibly be useful and invest in that.

That's not what GP is saying though:

> The best bet for the future is to pick a career path that is not massively over supplied with candidates.

Re: People from elite backgrounds increasingly dominate academia, data shows

#279

Post by at_a_remove »

I noted that, when I worked at the university, the admin tier seemed to have a lot of wealth not attached to their jobs, although they did do a decent job of hiding it. One might have a father who did Everest (not cheap), or you might hear about multiple "family homes." Others seemed to take incredible amounts of vacations to exotic locales. Meritocracy was largely a sham, especially if you tracked careers of those who came and went.

Re: People from elite backgrounds increasingly dominate academia, data shows

#280

Post by Retric »

lumost wrote: post #240
SketchySeaBeast wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That game will get worse over time as people optimize for it too. It'll be a matter of trying to guess what's going to be in demand but not so in demand that people are training for it because they are also trying to choose a career that's in demand. And as usual, those with the better information and means to switch paths or take multiple shots will be the ones who can come out ahead.

Pretty much, We don't talk about it as often as we should - but post dot-com Software was a bad place to be. There was general fear that outsourcing to India would do to software what outsourcing to China was doing for Manufacturing. These fears culminated in an under-supply of CS majors through the 2000s and an oversupply of various "business" degrees. The assumed "ideal path" was to be in management so as not to be…

Nursing pay did rise quite a bit with Covid, so I suspect there wasn't a shortage before then.

This gets to a core issue with our system. Employers want an over supply to drive down wages and the easiest way to get that is misinformation.

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