People from elite backgrounds increasingly dominate academia, data shows • Hacker News Board

Re: People from elite backgrounds increasingly dominate academia, data shows

#261

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Jul 11, 2022, 2:45 PM UTC

vlunkr wrote: post #49

cm2187 wrote: post #32

> In 1970, just 1 in 5 U.S.-born PhD graduates in economics had a parent with a graduate degree. Now? Two-thirds of them do, according to a new analysis from the Peterson Institute for International Economics. The trends are similar for other fields (and for foreign-born students), but economics is off the charts. > This partly reflects population trends: Over that same period, the share of parents with graduate degr…

I had the same thoughts. The country is now more educated than it was before, and they want to paint that as a bad thing. And point some fingers at the “elite,” Which is now people who’s parents have a college degree I guess.

[deleted]

Re: People from elite backgrounds increasingly dominate academia, data shows

#262

Post by honkler » Mon, Jul 11, 2022, 2:46 PM UTC

bhouston wrote: post #207

klqp wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is an excellent explanation, but I have one small remark: Diversity and equity is taught at elite cadre schools and used as a distinguishing marker from the proletariat. This gives elite children a wedge to get into Ive League institutions without high test scores. Think of it as the new "extracurricular activity" on steroids. Diversity and equity have been co-opted by the elites and are a powerful tool (smoke s…

> Diversity and equity is taught at elite cadre schools and used as a distinguishing marker from the proletariat. This gives elite children a wedge to get into Ive League institutions without high test scores. Can you prove that in any way? This sounds like a made up "fact."

How can you "prove" it? It is neither a theorem, nor written on a legal document somwhere. It's an observation.

Re: People from elite backgrounds increasingly dominate academia, data shows

#263

Post by 3pt14159 » Mon, Jul 11, 2022, 2:48 PM UTC

alexpotato wrote: post #213

This story is decidedly anecdata, even personal, but I think it's illustrative of what's going on in certain fields. - Had a friend who has multiple graduate level degrees in architecture related sub-specialties e.g. architecture criticism etc - HN being what it is, I will mention that the pay for most of the jobs you would get with the above is zero or near zero. - There is also a dramatic oversupply of candidates f…

This is a decidedly personal, anecdotal story too, but I think it's illustrative of some of the reasons to hope for the world.

I was dating someone that was a civil engineer and she absolutely hated the constant sexual harassment that happens on construction sites in Canada. She came from a poor family that fled Russia as the Soviet Union was collapsing.

I told her I could teach her tech in one month. Whatever she wanted, frontend, backend, didn't matter. Enough to get hired. She took the plunge, dove in and I tutored her about 40 hours a week for a month or so. Got her a mini data science contract with some friends of mine and after this little boost of experience she landed a job at Shopify and more than tripled her already above average salary. Stayed there for years and as far as I know she's still doing quite well.

Yes there are problems in the modern economy. Real, awful problems. We need to look at them with clear eyes and make policy changes to make sure that things don't get worse for the least fortunate in life.

But that said, there are a lot of unsung stories out there and the world is getting better in a lot of little ways. We should not lose hope.

Re: People from elite backgrounds increasingly dominate academia, data shows

#264

Post by throwaway0a5e » Mon, Jul 11, 2022, 2:48 PM UTC

lumost wrote: post #240

SketchySeaBeast wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That game will get worse over time as people optimize for it too. It'll be a matter of trying to guess what's going to be in demand but not so in demand that people are training for it because they are also trying to choose a career that's in demand. And as usual, those with the better information and means to switch paths or take multiple shots will be the ones who can come out ahead.

Pretty much, We don't talk about it as often as we should - but post dot-com Software was a bad place to be. There was general fear that outsourcing to India would do to software what outsourcing to China was doing for Manufacturing. These fears culminated in an under-supply of CS majors through the 2000s and an oversupply of various "business" degrees. The assumed "ideal path" was to be in management so as not to be…

>accountants/financiers/managers

All of these professions do just fine, even the ones in which there's "oversupply". What these professions don't provide is readily available opportunity for someone of substantially below median intelligence and work ethic to make a very nice living with little more than token effort as is the case in software, or any other "hot" industry (in a cooler industry they plateau much closer to entry level).

Re: People from elite backgrounds increasingly dominate academia, data shows

#265

Post by matthewdgreen » Mon, Jul 11, 2022, 2:49 PM UTC

alexpotato wrote: post #213

This story is decidedly anecdata, even personal, but I think it's illustrative of what's going on in certain fields. - Had a friend who has multiple graduate level degrees in architecture related sub-specialties e.g. architecture criticism etc - HN being what it is, I will mention that the pay for most of the jobs you would get with the above is zero or near zero. - There is also a dramatic oversupply of candidates f…

Even if this is true, it probably explains a fraction of 1% of the effects that TFA is talking about. The set of "curator etc." positions with fundraising influence is vanishingly small. It's much more likely that the bigger pressure is the need to complete many unpaid internships, which is easier for wealthy folks. (And to add anecdata, the two curators I personally know are both from middle-class backgrounds and have nothing to do with fundraising.)

Re: People from elite backgrounds increasingly dominate academia, data shows

#266

Post by ProjectArcturis » Mon, Jul 11, 2022, 2:52 PM UTC

mudrockbestgirl wrote: post #16

From my own experience in academia I was surprised by how many of my peers went into academia because they were expected to do so by their parents, who were also academics. It's a smallish sample, but ~90% of the people I talked to never considered other careers paths. Their parents were academics, so it's just natural that they become one too. They already knew this ever since high school. As someone who got into ac…

That was me, 20 years ago. Going to grad school after college was just automatically assumed, like going to college after high school. And why not? My parents had made a nice life for themselves, going from farms to a secure upper-middle-class existence. Seemed like a relatively low-stress occupation that provided a lot of intellectual variety.

Of course, the level of competition changed dramatically between their generation and mine. Then you could go directly from grad school to a tenure-track position and generally expect lifetime employment. Now, in the sciences, you're expected to live a nomadic life as you go from postdoc to postdoc, making less than $50k, perhaps eventually landing that coveted tenure-track. In the humanities it's even worse, where you work adjunct jobs that pay less than minimum wage.

It's no surprise that people with family money are most likely to win these contests of endurance. If you need to earn your own money, it's simply irrational to persist in the academic rat race.

Re: People from elite backgrounds increasingly dominate academia, data shows

#267

Post by matthewdgreen » Mon, Jul 11, 2022, 2:53 PM UTC

Mezzie wrote: post #252

alexpotato wrote: post #213

This story is decidedly anecdata, even personal, but I think it's illustrative of what's going on in certain fields. - Had a friend who has multiple graduate level degrees in architecture related sub-specialties e.g. architecture criticism etc - HN being what it is, I will mention that the pay for most of the jobs you would get with the above is zero or near zero. - There is also a dramatic oversupply of candidates f…

Academia just isn't WORTH it for talented peasants (speaking as one). I had people encouraging me to go into academia since I was 4-5 years old, had a desire to go be a professor, etc. But things have changed a lot since I was a child 30 years ago. Now, if I were to go into academia without family or other connections, I'm looking at: - Unstable employment and a serious amount of overwork. At the end of this I may ge…

> Restrictions on what I can say

Academia isn't perfect and it sure isn't what it once was. But go ahead and talk crap about your corporate employer for the next six months and see what happens to you.

Re: People from elite backgrounds increasingly dominate academia, data shows

#268

Post by rayiner » Mon, Jul 11, 2022, 2:54 PM UTC

barry-cotter wrote: post #150

klqp wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is an excellent explanation, but I have one small remark: Diversity and equity is taught at elite cadre schools and used as a distinguishing marker from the proletariat. This gives elite children a wedge to get into Ive League institutions without high test scores. Think of it as the new "extracurricular activity" on steroids. Diversity and equity have been co-opted by the elites and are a powerful tool (smoke s…

Quite. See abolishing the GRE and similar exams for entrance to graduate school as well. Letters of introduction come much easier to the right sort of people than to the kind of strivers who have to rely on objective tests to get into prestigious institutions.

I went to a merit admissions high school, and as a teenager I’d say stuff like “there are too many Asian nerds here, we should get rid of the admissions tests!” to be edgy. (I was obviously joking—I was an Asian nerd who got in on standardized testing.)

In recent years I’ve been shocked to learn how many “nice” liberals basically agree with such statements, except unironically.

Re: People from elite backgrounds increasingly dominate academia, data shows

#269

Post by ProjectArcturis » Mon, Jul 11, 2022, 2:56 PM UTC

meetingthrower wrote: post #139

lordnacho wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Oxford / Cambridge are also very "exclusive" in the worst way possible I went there, and I didn't see anything but ordinary people. Something like Classics will naturally skew towards secondary schools that have a Latin class, but apart from that admissions are close to a dice roll among qualified kids. Certainly the impression I got was that dons were jealously guarding their right to decide, on their own, who wou…

Can confirm. Just went to open days at Oxford and Cambridge with my son. We are Americans. Both my wife and I are double ivy grads. Totally different than the US and much more meritocratic. Steps are: 1. Be qualified to apply. In UK this means at least AAA if not more. Varies by course. US equivalent is have at least three 5s on AP and above 1450 on SAT. This is roughly equivalent to top 10% of uk graduates. 2. Take…

>This really separates the grinders vs the smart kids as the tests are based on what you intend to study, but most are more intelligence based and cannot necessarily be prepped for.

Can you expand on that? I would be amazed to find tests that truly measure intelligence and where your score doesn't improve with practice.

Re: People from elite backgrounds increasingly dominate academia, data shows

#270

Post by Mezzie » Mon, Jul 11, 2022, 2:57 PM UTC

geoduck14 wrote: post #259

Mezzie wrote: post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Seriously? In the late 1990s, I was in middle school. My grand parents sat me down and told me to work towards a degree that makes a lot of money. They had lists of "typical starting salaries, by college degrees". We picked the top 3, and I started working towards those. I later reassessed and picked the top 1 - Electrical Engineering. And people from poor and/or rural backgrounds? I only got those discussions beca…

I grew up poor. I was raised by my grandparents part of the time, and my single mom part of the time. I also spent part my my childhood in "rural" America. And I'm mentally disabled. Educators told my family that I would end up in prison by the time I turned 18.

I'd be curious about your grandparents' socio-economic statuses throughout their life and their ages (particularly whether their socio matched their economic). Also which part of your childhood was rural, because lacking resources at 6-7 is going to have very different results than lacking them in high school.

My point is that whether or not something is 'simple' depends very much on what resources you (and your group/family) have at hand. For example, I was coding in elementary school, so from my experience the idea that coding could be difficult to learn doesn't make sense. But it obviously is/can be difficult depending on background.

And never mind if somebody is from an abusive home (like I also was): If mom's passed out drunk and depressed on the couch and middle school you is running after your younger sibling (me again), mom and dad aren't giving you college or earnings talks.

It's not a kid's fault for not knowing these things, although at least now bright kids with no adults can use the Web to help and look up this information.