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People from elite backgrounds increasingly dominate academia, data shows

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Re: People from elite backgrounds increasingly dominate academia, data shows

#251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What does the entrance process for Tsinghua, IIT, and C9 look like? I'm just wondering how they are more meritocratic, do they just have less side-door admissions?

IIT is pseudo-meritocratic. It's a very rigorous exam and the person who can spend their whole high school time studying phy, Chem and maths and who can spend the most money joining the best coaching institutions and best mentors bacially get the admission. Doesn't matter if someone has an IQ of 200 or India's best football player or coding genius unless they get the highest marks in physics chemistry in maths they a…

lol .... by this definition all college entrance exams are pseudo meritocratic.

Re: People from elite backgrounds increasingly dominate academia, data shows

#252

This story is decidedly anecdata, even personal, but I think it's illustrative of what's going on in certain fields. - Had a friend who has multiple graduate level degrees in architecture related sub-specialties e.g. architecture criticism etc - HN being what it is, I will mention that the pay for most of the jobs you would get with the above is zero or near zero. - There is also a dramatic oversupply of candidates f…

Academia just isn't WORTH it for talented peasants (speaking as one).

I had people encouraging me to go into academia since I was 4-5 years old, had a desire to go be a professor, etc. But things have changed a lot since I was a child 30 years ago. Now, if I were to go into academia without family or other connections, I'm looking at:

- Unstable employment and a serious amount of overwork. At the end of this I may get a chance at some stability, but given how academia is moving away from the tenure-track, that's less and less likely.

- Restrictions on what I can say and what kind of work I can do based on academic politics, what grants will fund, etc.

- Very little reputational benefit to affiliating myself with an institution: speaking as an American, our institutions are collapsing. Why would I tie myself to a sinking ship? Those who are already in the upper-middle or upper class are all in on maintaining the status quo because it works for them and because they have a safety net if things go south. It's similar to how, no matter what your interpretation of Jan. 6, 2021, I bet there's some reconsidering of people's desires to be staff in Congress. ("I'm not getting shot for Pelosi/McConnell, fuck that noise.")

On the other hand, if I DON'T go into academia, I can still access research and I can say whatever I want. I can also work on my own schedule and only do work that I think has some value (as opposed to chasing after publications and massaging my work to beef up my CV).

Anyone from a poorer background who has the skills to make it in academia also has the skills to recognize that it is a TERRIBLE deal for them at the moment and that they have better options.

Granted, this is also true of higher socio-economic classes, and that's one reason the people from elite backgrounds in academia are also trending towards the more and more mediocre.

Re: People from elite backgrounds increasingly dominate academia, data shows

#253
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you elaborate slightly? I don't want to misinterpret you.

"Academics" usually means "university faculty or people working in research labs." These people tend to make low wages compared to typical industry positions. PhDs also don't tend to open too many doors in industry. At the major tech companies, they are roughly equivalent to 3-6 years of industry experience. They might make a resume more attractive, but you end up going through the same hiring process and largely wor…

But this is discluding those who work in academic research labs for major tech companies.

Re: People from elite backgrounds increasingly dominate academia, data shows

#254
post #40

> People from elite backgrounds increasingly dominate academia Even if your system was pure Meritocracy that'd make 16th century Anglos proud, you'd still expect it to eventually come to this (smart people have smart kids, dumb people have dumb kids)

> pure Meritocracy that'd make 16th century Anglos proud

Huh?! 16th century's UK was a feudal society.

> smart people have smart kids, dumb people have dumb kids

You are confusing intelligence, effort, education and opportunities.

Re: People from elite backgrounds increasingly dominate academia, data shows

#255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Picking a career path isn’t that simple. Who can really predict what will be oversupplied 4 (college), 6(college + masters) or 8/10 (college + PhD) years from now? Additionally, if you’re wealthy enough, going into a passion project is the viable option. It’s what privilege affords you- doing what you are passionate about. I wished everyone had this.

>Picking a career path isn’t that simple. Who can really predict what will be oversupplied 4 (college), 6(college + masters) or 8/10 (college + PhD) years from now? Seriously? In the late 1990s, I was in middle school. My grand parents sat me down and told me to work towards a degree that makes a lot of money. They had lists of "typical starting salaries, by college degrees". We picked the top 3, and I started workin…

> Seriously? In the late 1990s, I was in middle school. My grand parents sat me down and told me to work towards a degree that makes a lot of money. They had lists of "typical starting salaries, by college degrees". We picked the top 3, and I started working towards those. I later reassessed and picked the top 1 - Electrical Engineering.

And people from poor and/or rural backgrounds? I only got those discussions because I tested well enough that my future potential was considered a societal matter and educators unrelated to me were brought in to inform both me AND my parents. None of my classmates, siblings, or cousins had that benefit.

Re: People from elite backgrounds increasingly dominate academia, data shows

#256
post #122
post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had the same thoughts. The country is now more educated than it was before, and they want to paint that as a bad thing. And point some fingers at the “elite,” Which is now people who’s parents have a college degree I guess.

> and they want to paint that as a bad thing I would think it's obvious to anyone that the bad thing is the creation of a caste system and lack of social mobility.

Doesn’t the increase in degrees indicate that there is social mobility?

Re: People from elite backgrounds increasingly dominate academia, data shows

#257

Many big tech companies are indeed led by people from Worker Bee schools (Midwestern state schools, SEC, ACC, etc.) Except for Google, famously founded by Stanford students. Or Microsoft & Facebook: Harvard dropouts. It's quite a different story when you get to the people who really consider themselves Elite: big consulting firms, white shoe law firms, large media companies, and top echelons of the government. For th…

Most colleges actually do track this metric - generally it's reported as "first-generation students." (Generally defined as parents without a four-year degree, not parents with zero college education, but same concept.) Here's Harvard's press release for the class of 2026, saying "Students who will be in the first generation of their family to graduate from a four-year college or the equivalent represent 20.3 percent…

Thanks. Has anyone graphed this over a longish time period (30-40 years)?

Re: People from elite backgrounds increasingly dominate academia, data shows

#258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If Harvard went away, I would be VERY happy. Schools like Tsinghua, IIT, and C9 are much more meritocratic. Oxford / Cambridge are also very "exclusive" in the worst way possible, and given the history of the early US, it's not surprising that this insular Victorian / London culture of poshness also permeated into 17th / 18th century Ivy League schools in the Puritanical US. I'm amazed at what abject conditions Easte…

What does the entrance process for Tsinghua, IIT, and C9 look like? I'm just wondering how they are more meritocratic, do they just have less side-door admissions?

There are no side door admissions basically. You have to write a National level entrance exam and get the best rankings to get into the best universities and departments.

Re: People from elite backgrounds increasingly dominate academia, data shows

#259
post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Picking a career path isn’t that simple. Who can really predict what will be oversupplied 4 (college), 6(college + masters) or 8/10 (college + PhD) years from now? Seriously? In the late 1990s, I was in middle school. My grand parents sat me down and told me to work towards a degree that makes a lot of money. They had lists of "typical starting salaries, by college degrees". We picked the top 3, and I started workin…

> Seriously? In the late 1990s, I was in middle school. My grand parents sat me down and told me to work towards a degree that makes a lot of money. They had lists of "typical starting salaries, by college degrees". We picked the top 3, and I started working towards those. I later reassessed and picked the top 1 - Electrical Engineering. And people from poor and/or rural backgrounds? I only got those discussions beca…

I grew up poor. I was raised by my grandparents part of the time, and my single mom part of the time. I also spent part my my childhood in "rural" America. And I'm mentally disabled. Educators told my family that I would end up in prison by the time I turned 18.

Re: People from elite backgrounds increasingly dominate academia, data shows

#260

This story is decidedly anecdata, even personal, but I think it's illustrative of what's going on in certain fields. - Had a friend who has multiple graduate level degrees in architecture related sub-specialties e.g. architecture criticism etc - HN being what it is, I will mention that the pay for most of the jobs you would get with the above is zero or near zero. - There is also a dramatic oversupply of candidates f…

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