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People from elite backgrounds increasingly dominate academia, data shows

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Re: People from elite backgrounds increasingly dominate academia, data shows

#201
post #142

"PhD programs tend to require a hidden curriculum of classes in subjects such as mathematics that are not technically required for economics majors." "subjects such as mathematics that are not technically required for economics majors" Eh? Who lets clueless writers like this near a keyboard?

There is a rampant war against math. I don't know when it started, but it did. But what people ignore is that math is mandatory in hard science. So people thought that math was the obstacle put in their path just to block them. They asked to get rid of the obstacle, but they failed to understand that it was not there to block their path, it was mandatory.

Reality always win.

Re: People from elite backgrounds increasingly dominate academia, data shows

#202

They’re defining having an elite background as having a parent with a post-graduate degree… which seems like a stretch to me. Post graduate degrees are not that special anymore and they often don’t earn you much additional money, let alone power.

Twenty or thirty years ago a graduate degree was very unusual. Now it’s clearly not a marker of elite status. Things have changed.

That by itself totally explains the trend. There were enough intelligent people back then, but they just didn't go to college. This is alarmist, virtue-signalling, click and rage bait journalism.

Re: People from elite backgrounds increasingly dominate academia, data shows

#203
post #102

Why is this at all surprising? In any status-conscious society (read: any human society), given enough time, the people who make it to the top will invariably maximize opportunity afforded to their affinity group (i.e. offspring) at the expense of everyone else. This process manifests itself regardless of the role merit plays in the sorting algorithm. If the rules are relatively meritocratic (and relatively stable),…

> In any status-conscious society (read: any human society), given enough time, the people who make it to the top will invariably maximize opportunity afforded to their affinity group (i.e. offspring) at the expense of everyone else.

You state this as if it's an inescapable fact instead of something that we as a society should improve upon.

Case in point, I grew up in a "working class" factory but thanks to socialist policies of affordable and state-sponsored education, I got a college degree and work in IT now. Everyone should have that opportunity IMO.

Of course, your point does stand, because our government started to pull up the ladder behind me; first with policies to reduce "eternal students", people who abused the system and stayed in school until their 30s because they got paid; then with getting rid of the state-paid thing entirely, changing the whole scholarship system to a loan - leading to young graduates to start their career tens of thousands in debt. Great start, keep 'em financially weak. They seem to be reversing that, but there is a whole generation now that has suffered under it.

TL;DR, I think education at all levels should be free or cheap / affordable, to avoid education becoming something for the rich elite.

Re: People from elite backgrounds increasingly dominate academia, data shows

#204
post #191

The article totally fails to mention the elephant in the room: graduate school costs! Moreover, the public debate over student loan forgiveness typically fails to mention that graduate students owe 50% of all student loan debt, despite being only 25% of all student loan debtors. Getting a PhD often takes many years, and the PhD completion rate for incoming graduate students is very low. Even after you get a PhD, it c…

Most graduate school debt is due to master’s degrees and professional degrees (e.g. JDs, MDs, MBAs). The vast majority of PhD programs are fully funded, fully covering tuition and providing a (modest) stipend.

Citation please?

For reference, I was in a PhD program in the humanities at the University of Wisconsin, and it was definitely not fully funded.

Re: People from elite backgrounds increasingly dominate academia, data shows

#205
post #191

The article totally fails to mention the elephant in the room: graduate school costs! Moreover, the public debate over student loan forgiveness typically fails to mention that graduate students owe 50% of all student loan debt, despite being only 25% of all student loan debtors. Getting a PhD often takes many years, and the PhD completion rate for incoming graduate students is very low. Even after you get a PhD, it c…

That's one of the reasons I oppose taxpayer-funded debt dismissal. It's just not right to ask low-income taxpayers (including those who didn't go to college) to pay off the debts of those who did go-- and have a higher earnings potential. It's also a great dis-service to those who have paid into Social Security for decades and now face a looming shortfall. Those people actually paid in and are going to have to deal w…

> It's just not right to ask low-income taxpayers (including those who didn't go to college)

Low-income people don't actually pay much taxes. In fact their primary tax payment may be the fixed-rate Social Security FICA that you mention, not the progressive income taxes after deductions and credits.

Moreover, what about the low-income student who have to go into debt to go to school, while the rich kids have their parents pay for everything? This is my point in relation to the article: who can afford to even get a PhD nowadays except the kids of financially well-off parents? That's one of the reason richer kids are coming to dominate academia.

> a higher earnings potential

My point is that the difference between actual and potential is the difference between a comfortable life and a lifetime of debt that may follow you to old age and death.

There's basically no return whatsoever on your investment if you spend years in a PhD program but don't finish. It's all money down the drain. Meanwhile, graduate students are exploited by universities for very cheap teaching labor.

Re: People from elite backgrounds increasingly dominate academia, data shows

#206

Elite schools want people from the power class. A lot of this is explicitly baked into admissions. Over 40% of white students at Harvard are side-door admissions (legacy, donors, children of faculty, etc.). This is especially true for minority admissions. For the most part, Harvard won't admit lower-class African Americans; they'll select from a much smaller pool who have already moved into the power networks. That's…

> Over 40% of white students at Harvard are side-door admissions (legacy, donors, children of faculty, etc.).

I'm sure it's over 40%. It wouldn't surprise me if it's 70. There are a lot of side doors.

My information is dated, but as of circa-2008, the Ivies were including ZIP code and paternal (but not maternal) profession in their predictive modeling. The interviews (which are evaluative, even when people say they're not) are also driven more by class markers than academic factors.

> This is especially true for minority admissions. For the most part, Harvard won't admit lower-class African Americans; they'll select from a much smaller pool who have already moved into the power networks. That's important for maintaining power networks now that the DEI movement means minorities will likely e.g. serve on corporate boards.

This. Which is why I get so angry about right-wing populism. Yes, DEI initiatives mostly come from a place of insincerity. Corporates care about more about making the elite look more palatable than changing how it actually governs, and the minorities being accepted into the outer fringes of the (still inbred at heart) corporate elite will be discarded the minute they are no longer needed. But, nevertheless, the causes (racial, social, and gender justice) from which "wokeness" sprung are still quite laudable and necessary. The fact that we've allowed insincere corporate assholes to carry a banner on these issues is a travesty... because, while they don't know it, a lot of the right-ish populists are motivated by justified anger at the corporate system... and for us on the left to say that they're actually motivated by "anti-woke" racism does no good for anyone.

Re: People from elite backgrounds increasingly dominate academia, data shows

#207
post #136
post #102

Why is this at all surprising? In any status-conscious society (read: any human society), given enough time, the people who make it to the top will invariably maximize opportunity afforded to their affinity group (i.e. offspring) at the expense of everyone else. This process manifests itself regardless of the role merit plays in the sorting algorithm. If the rules are relatively meritocratic (and relatively stable),…

This is an excellent explanation, but I have one small remark: Diversity and equity is taught at elite cadre schools and used as a distinguishing marker from the proletariat. This gives elite children a wedge to get into Ive League institutions without high test scores. Think of it as the new "extracurricular activity" on steroids. Diversity and equity have been co-opted by the elites and are a powerful tool (smoke s…

> Diversity and equity is taught at elite cadre schools and used as a distinguishing marker from the proletariat. This gives elite children a wedge to get into Ive League institutions without high test scores.

Can you prove that in any way? This sounds like a made up "fact."

Re: People from elite backgrounds increasingly dominate academia, data shows

#208
What was the situation in the 1920s?

The US created another higher education system in the postwar era to handle the demand created by the GI Bill. The number of open professor slots at these new schools could not have been filled just by the children of existing academics, so there was a window when newcomers could enter academia much more easily than what would come after, and probably even more easily than what came before.

Now we have children and grandchildren of the gigantic cohort of PhD holders from the GI Bill era competing for jobs when the student population is stagnant or declining. Given that we won't be doubling the size of higher education anytime soon, I don't foresee opportunities like what we witnessed in the 70s returning.

Re: People from elite backgrounds increasingly dominate academia, data shows

#210
post #3

Isn't this to be expected with any similarly weighted network? Guess who private sector loves to promote to executive positions like VP and SVP? Harvard and ivy grads. Even in engineering, where it's supposed to be more of a meritocracy, you can see this at every bigco. Human idiosyncrasies lead to branding pedigree consistently being selected over pure skill and / or superior experience in favor of an abstract perce…

Nobody cares where you graduate from school in engineering. It's all about what you can do, and in larger corporations, also how politically savvy you are. Most of middle and upper management (VP / SVP) also has degrees from no-name schools. If anything, they'll have degrees from worker bee / nerd schools like CMU, Caltech, and UC Berkeley, not Ivy degrees (except for Cornell, which is basically a public school). Upw…

> If anything, they'll have degrees from worker bee / nerd schools like CMU, Caltech, and UC Berkeley, not Ivy degrees

That's weird, because all those schools you mentioned are ivy leagues in the comparative sense.

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