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As TikTok grows, so does suspicion

economist.com

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Re: As TikTok grows, so does suspicion

#551

Post by wizofaus »

vineyardmike wrote: post #377
wizofaus wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those two companies will be "destroyed" when they can no longer do what they do as well as their competitors. What the current laws are in China are unlikely to have much impact either way.

The point is that we allow competition from China but they can’t compete in China. It’s asymmetrical competition. The Chinese companies have a bigger population of customers (so more access to make money, more people to serve and grow from etc). China protects their businesses from American competition but we don’t protect our businesses from Chinese competition.

When has protecting businesses from competition ever ended well?

Re: As TikTok grows, so does suspicion

#552

Post by aembleton »

hellodanylo wrote: post #302

A lot of concerns are focusing on (person) -> (tiktok) -> (CCP) data flow. What about the reverse information flow? A foreign political party tuning the algorithm to affect public opinions? I think this is even more impactful than data snooping. It's also a lot harder to detect and prevent.

> TikTok’s growing role as a news platform has sparked fears that, in the words of Ted Cruz, an American senator, it is “a Trojan horse the Chinese Communist Party can use to influence what Americans see, hear and ultimately think”.

That's about 75% of the way through the article.

Re: As TikTok grows, so does suspicion

#553

Post by drno123 »

_-david-_ wrote: post #334
drno123 wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, since in the last 20 years US invaded Iraq, Afganistan and Lybia while PRC invaded 0 countries.

Could you remind me which country took over Hong Kong and which country is trying to take land from India?

According to an agreement between UK and China, Hong Kong was transferred back to China.

Re: As TikTok grows, so does suspicion

#554

Post by trashtester »

Sophistifunk wrote: post #423
fabianhjr wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am from latin america and at least neither China nor Russia have participated in coup d'etat to install a military junta to then torture and massacre anyone slightly left of the US "Democratic" Party. Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_2khAmMTAjI

Absolutely nothing about the historical bad behaviour of the US in Central and South America has any bearing on the threat the CCP poses to a billion Chinese and the world today. Nothing.

Not their actions in Latin America, but the USA did parttake in some extreme violence in Asia about 75 years ago that could be blamed for the CCP gaining power in the first place.

I'm not sure Imperial Japanese rule would be so much better, though.

Re: As TikTok grows, so does suspicion

#555

Post by stackbutterflow »

klibertp wrote: post #550
stackbutterflow wrote: post #547

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A tiny part of Taiwan was under Chinese rule for barely 2 centuries 400 years ago. Even at that time China never cared about it nor made an effort to develop it. China doesn't have more claim to Taiwan than any other similar colonizers that came and invaded Taiwan throughout the centuries. Japan was the first invader to achieve real control of most of the island. Eventually, beaten by Mao, Chiang Kai Shek and its arm…

Thanks, I took CCP claims at face value. I'll go read more on the topic. I was convinced that the Republic of China govt and army retreated to Taiwan, as in, it was already theirs. I didn't know it was conquest. Edit: > barely 2 centuries 400 years ago Wiki says it was 1683–1895, so 2 centuries but just 130 years ago. It was then ceded to Japan after China defeat in a war, so it had to be Chinese before that (otherwi…

Japan did get Taiwan from whoever was ruling China at that time.

My point is not that Taiwan never was under Chinese rule, but a) it never was really integrated to China like most current chinese provinces (China boasts about a 5000 year long history, loosely controlling (5% of) an island for 200 years before losing it at the very end of the their these 5000 years is not a very strong claim), b) never controlled the entirety of the island because Chinese settlers stayed on the coast, the rest of the island was under aboriginal control (which were not a uniform block) c) never cared about it (it was under the rule of a former pirate turned governor - look up Koxinga) and never did anything with it.

Chiang's army retreated to Taiwan but it's a matter of semantic. It was under Japanese occupation until the end of WW2. Chiang raised the question of Taiwan to the Americans who at that time couldn't care less about that tiny island because they had so much on their plate. The Americans were like "sure, whatever, go for it", but nothing was officially signed (iirc) and Chiang and his army invaded the island and went on to subject it to an horrible authoritarian rule for the next decades.

Final words, about the R.O.C claiming China. That's a sad legacy of Chiang's lunacy. And now the CCP says that if the R.O.C dares to say that they're independant (which they are, but can't say it) they will invade. So Taiwan is stuck with this nonsense because of the threats coming from the Chinese government. Also Chiang had a chance to have a seat the UN but refused because he wanted to be the only China. The rest is history.

Most of what I wrote above comes from the book "Forbidden nation" by Jonathan Manthorpe (and other books but that one covers the history of Taiwan since the very beginning.)

Edit: I posted that before you edit (which I haven't read yet).

Edit 2: I'm not arguing against the parallel with Ukraine which I know nothing about. Just against the analogy with a hypothetical US state leaving the union.

Re: As TikTok grows, so does suspicion

#556

Post by webmobdev »

madeofpalk wrote: post #216
mkl95 wrote: post #212

TikTok is the most successful espionage operation of the 21st century so far, and it is based on a simple idea - people will happily give away their data and privacy if you consistently entertain them. In my opinion the application should be shut down as soon as possible, but there are many lessons to learn from it. And most of them have little to do with technology.

As a non-US, non-Chinese citizen, is there something that makes TikTok espionage and Facebook not? Or is it just "china scary"?

TikTok is BigTech too. Chinese BigTech rather than US BigTech. That's a problem for some. As someone who is neither Chinese or American, and with no local alternative to any of the BigTech's service, I am screwed either way. With lax privacy laws and regulations in my country, both American and Chinese BigTech freely abuse our naivety and trust to harvest our personal data.

Re: As TikTok grows, so does suspicion

#557

Post by [deleted] »

stackbutterflow wrote: post #555
klibertp wrote: post #550

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks, I took CCP claims at face value. I'll go read more on the topic. I was convinced that the Republic of China govt and army retreated to Taiwan, as in, it was already theirs. I didn't know it was conquest. Edit: > barely 2 centuries 400 years ago Wiki says it was 1683–1895, so 2 centuries but just 130 years ago. It was then ceded to Japan after China defeat in a war, so it had to be Chinese before that (otherwi…

Japan did get Taiwan from whoever was ruling China at that time. My point is not that Taiwan never was under Chinese rule, but a) it never was really integrated to China like most current chinese provinces (China boasts about a 5000 year long history, loosely controlling (5% of) an island for 200 years before losing it at the very end of the their these 5000 years is not a very strong claim), b) never controlled the…

[deleted]

Re: As TikTok grows, so does suspicion

#558

Post by klibertp »

stackbutterflow wrote: post #555
klibertp wrote: post #550

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks, I took CCP claims at face value. I'll go read more on the topic. I was convinced that the Republic of China govt and army retreated to Taiwan, as in, it was already theirs. I didn't know it was conquest. Edit: > barely 2 centuries 400 years ago Wiki says it was 1683–1895, so 2 centuries but just 130 years ago. It was then ceded to Japan after China defeat in a war, so it had to be Chinese before that (otherwi…

Japan did get Taiwan from whoever was ruling China at that time. My point is not that Taiwan never was under Chinese rule, but a) it never was really integrated to China like most current chinese provinces (China boasts about a 5000 year long history, loosely controlling (5% of) an island for 200 years before losing it at the very end of the their these 5000 years is not a very strong claim), b) never controlled the…

> I'm not arguing against the parallel with Ukraine which I know nothing about. Just against the analogy with a hypothetical US state leaving the union.

Ah, ok. Yeah, I know basically nothing about the US and that analogy was indeed not a great one. I was thinking about Ukraine more, as it's both close by (to me) and happening right now.

In any case, thanks, I learned a bit more about the Taiwan history and will spend some more time reading about it, as it seems quite interesting :)

Re: As TikTok grows, so does suspicion

#559

Post by stackbutterflow »

andruby wrote: post #549
stackbutterflow wrote: post #539

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Non-US, non-China citizens don't speak Chinese but they speak English (or their journalists do). US shenanigans are for the whole world to see. You probably can't read Chinese so you have no idea how the Chinese government and their citizen view the rest of the world.

That feels like a weak argument. OP is talking geopolitics, not domestic shenanigans. I think internationals news happily picks up Chinese international interventions.

The situation is like highlighting the British empire's horrible actions while downplaying Nazi Germany's because they haven't invaded anyone (yet) and not knowing what Hitler and his friends have in store because of the language barrier.

And that's not a Godwin because the CCP's rhetoric these recent years is extremely racist and aggressive. They are feeding their population with a warped view of non-Han, non-Chinese people.

Re: As TikTok grows, so does suspicion

#560

Post by trashtester »

anothernewdude wrote: post #404
Calvin02 wrote: post #403

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Polls from 2017 and 2021. Do you think that the answer to this question will be the same post Covid and Russia’s invasion of Ukraine? And, in the same light, China’s increasingly threatening rhetoric against Taiwan?

Actually the first poll is from 2013, the post is from 2017. And the second is from 2020, again the post is from 2021.

The second poll is not about world peace, but about democracy. Historically, the US has been promoting democracy worldwide (and this has been a major contributor to their belligerence). With their ongoing schism between MAGA and WOKE, there is a risk they will end up non-democratic themselves, either as some kind of facisit or socialist.

THAT, and the fact that this conflict is being exported to other democratic countries is a threat to democracy, although not so much to World Peace.

2013 was before Russia's first hostilities against Ukraine and also before China started to flex their military muscles. Also, at that time, the Obama administration was involved in several wars as well as the use of drone warfare against their enemies elsewhere. I don't find it surprising that many would feel that the US was the greater threat at that time, even though the threat level overall was much lower at the time.

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