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The Crime That Killed Shinzo Abe

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Re: The Crime That Killed Shinzo Abe

#351

Post by sudosysgen »

atwood22 wrote: post #335
cmrdporcupine wrote: post #301

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honestly right now it feels like the Liberal Party is completely asleep at the wheel and there's a total absence of leadership at the moment and lots of ministerial files seem completely unmanaged or poorly managed. They were able to ride out the pandemic with some overall reasonable policies, and most of the stuff that annoyed people fell on the provinces. But they're clearly having a hard time transitioning now, an…

I can tell you're very passionate about these issues. I think you're falling into a trap, however, that has basically consumed the U.S. and all but ensured its fall from grace. I live in the U.S., but spend a large amount of time in Canada (3 months of the year). Canada is a great country compared to the U.S. Income inequality is much lower than in the U.S., you have decent health care, a sizable "blue collar" indust…

The issue is that things are getting worse and politics are decaying. Eventually this will lead to the same thing as what happened in the US. Being a milquetoast centrist and forcing yourself not to care won't help prevent that when things are actually getting worse either in actuality or in perception.

Re: The Crime That Killed Shinzo Abe

#352

Post by maire »

cvccvroomvroom wrote: post #100

The Moonies, often represented in America by some unfortunate Korean boy or girl, beg for money at American universities in exchange for food and lodging. It's essentially human trafficking and indentured servitude because they're trapped in a foreign country. So, if see someone who doesn't speak English who shoved a photo montage flip book clipboard of deprivation in front of you, think twice before giving them mone…

I found this list of companies affiliated with the Moonies (many defunct).

https://culteducation.com/unif121.html

Here is an interesting quote by someone who ran two of these businesses in the SF bay area.

"'With no labor costs and people willing to work 14 to 15 hours a day, you can undercut anybody' he said. Scales said that when he ran the Aladdin restaurants, employees signed over their pay-checks to the personal slush fund of West Coast church leader"

The article was from 1977 - and the Moonies tried to reform themselves later, but at that time they were slave labor businesses. Moon was able to shield his practices using his tax exempt status as a religious organisation.

Re: The Crime That Killed Shinzo Abe

#353

Post by giantg2 »

chmod600 wrote: post #324
giantg2 wrote: post #297

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"And those categories can't be expanded just because some politicians and judges think it's a good idea." Why not? Isn't that how the current ones came to be? "But all we have to do is stop clicking and start to develop a cultural idea that it's wrong to report is a way that makes killers (in)famous." That would be great, but what would that look like? I don't see a mechanism for incentizing them via culture. The onl…

"Why not? Isn't that how the current ones came to be?" There's an interesting history of rights prior to the Constitution. But now that we have a constitution, there's a defined process for amending it. Of course, there is still room for interpretation. But if you allow politicians and judges to wildly change the constitution on a whim, you might as well not have one. What you are suggesting qualifies as such a wild…

"There's an interesting history of rights prior to the Constitution. But now that we have a constitution, there's a defined process for amending it."

Yet the courts and legislature have added restrictions without following that process.

"But if you allow politicians and judges to wildly change the constitution on a whim, you might as well not have one."

I generally agree. However, it's not a radical change to include killers names under the "fighting words" standard since it is "inherently likely to produce a violent response" as evidenced in research and through anecdote/commonsense.

"And if such an amendment were proposed, I think it would get very little support."

Why is that? The right should support it since it's a solution that doesn't involve further firearm restrictions. The left should support it since they want to take action on the issue and make meaningful changes, which this is. And there doesn't appear to be any issue with restricting the killer's name as it doesn't interfere with the message or ideas the journalist would be reporting.

Re: The Crime That Killed Shinzo Abe

#354

Post by ezekiel11 »

batch12 wrote: post #269
cpncrunch wrote: post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nobusuke_Kishi

> After World War II, Kishi was imprisoned for three years as a suspected Class A war criminal. However, the U.S. government did not charge, try, or convict him, and eventually released him as they considered Kishi to be the best man to lead a post-war Japan in a pro-American direction.

[flagged]

Re: The Crime That Killed Shinzo Abe

#355

Post by rasz »

toyg wrote: post #170
suction wrote: post #150

Japanese people I know are adamant that Abe had no ties or did ever voice support for the Moon sect, ever. I am now wondering if Abe had kept it secret and the shooter somehow found out.

If the cult ruined his life and he took it out on the first politician he could somehow link to them, the problem is not whether such politician really had such relationship, but the fact that such idea was credible in the first place. Are cults in Japan tolerated a bit too much, leaving them free to ruin's people lives? Are politicians just sitting by, or even enabling such cults? Those should be the questions peopl…

>Are cults in Japan tolerated a bit too much

This one is still around, albeit at the fringes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aum_Shinrikyo

" Shoko Asahara, the leader of the Aum Shinrikyo doomsday cult, was hanged after being sentenced to death in 2004"

For real cult tolerance look no further than S.Korea. Any innocent social gathering has >50% chance of being cult recruitment gathering.

Re: The Crime That Killed Shinzo Abe

#356

Post by giantg2 »

15155 wrote: post #309
giantg2 wrote: post #303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure what you expect. I'm not writing some law that won't actually be used. The idea should be easy to grasp - journalists publishing/broadcasting the picture/name of a murderer who is not at large will be fined. The fine could be set a number of ways, but should be substantial and graded based on the income of the individual and organization. I think you're taking that "easy" quote out of context.

Your ideology to deter crime is quite easy to grasp - implementation via abridging the freedom of speech is problematic.

Why?

There are numerous restrictions already on freedom of speech for this very reason.

Re: The Crime That Killed Shinzo Abe

#357

Post by [deleted] »

KaiserPro wrote: post #73

This is a lot of words for the basic conjecture that he was killed by/for being a moonie. The problem with this reporting is that it takes the killer's supposed words at face value. This is a big risk, especially as at this stage we are not entirely certain that those words are accurate. Now, this may eventually appear to be the case, but the level of certainty presented in this article is unfounded.

[deleted]

Re: The Crime That Killed Shinzo Abe

#358

Post by sudosysgen »

rramadass wrote: post #157

I don't completely buy the "religious group" reason given by the assassin. It might just be a convenient cover story for any "State Actors" behind the assassination. Shinzo Abe had been a real thorn in the side of China and North Korea by pushing a hard-line approach towards them. He had tremendous worldwide political/economic clout and was instrumental in establishing the "Pacific Quad" as a real challenge to China…

If there was state level involvement couldn't they have smuggled a proper gun instead of having him make an abomination that could very well have completely failed (and missed in the first shot)? And why go after an ex soldier in that case? It doesn't seem to check out at all.

Re: The Crime That Killed Shinzo Abe

#359

Post by giantg2 »

radford-neal wrote: post #323
giantg2 wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that there are many things that we could do, and that there are costs associated with them. "Banning free speech and the free flow of information is not a price worth paying." I generally agree with this, but what harm is done by banning the media from using the name of a criminal likely to be notorious (mass murder, assassination, etc)?

Well, for starters, it would mean that members of the public who had interacted with the murderer, and had important information about their motives, means of obtaining weapons, accomplices, etc. would not realize that they had important information, and therefore would not make this information available to investigators. Next, it would mean that powerful interests who had responsibility for the crime, by instigatio…

"and therefore would not make this information available to investigators."

I find it unlikely that investigators would not be able to find those connections themselves, especially in the digital age.

"Next, it would mean that powerful interests who had responsibility for the crime, by instigation or negligence, might be able to avoid accountability for their actions/omissions, since people would not be able to connect them to the murderer."

How so? The media could still report on groups instigating the crime without naming the person committing it.

"Democracy is based on the belief that ordinary people can be trusted to know the truth, and use it in governing themselves. Perhaps you don't believe that, and are just against democracy?"

Don't troll, it's against the rules. Our democracy has had restriction on speech throughout its history, and has added others. Withholding the name has no impact on how ordinary people will make decisions since it's not pertinent to the underlying issued which could be described through impersonal means (talk about the actual mental illness you mentioned and not the specific person).

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