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The world needs a non-profit search engine

daoudclarke.net

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Re: The world needs a non-profit search engine

#201

Post by O__________O »

Worth noting attempts at non-profit search engines are not new. In 2015, Wikimedia Foundation attempted to start one called the “Knowledge Engine” using at least $250,000 from a grant. Wikipedia likely started the project as a response to Google’s use of “knowledge panels” based on Wikipedia Creative Commons license alongside search results in 2012, which reduced traffic to Wikipedia.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knowledge_Engine_(Wikimedia_...

Also worth noting that Google is a significant donor (and now enterprise customer) of Wikipedia, but unclear if this had any impact of Wikipedia’s choice not to continue the project.

Re: The world needs a non-profit search engine

#202

Post by lotsofpulp »

zo1 wrote: post #149
whoknows2 wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also let's not forget Reddit. There's a lot of bullshit on top.

I went back to Reddit a week back after a 1 or so year, and what I saw was just disgusting on the main feed. One click, a bit of scroll and I was watching people calling republicans terrorists and being praised/upvoted/gifted. It's not just about bullshit at the top, it's also about echo chambers and the online equivalent of mob-behavior.

> it's also about echo chambers and the online equivalent of mob-behavior.

This particular example might be about the Republican party-wide support of echo chambers and offline mob behavior that led to an invasion of the building containing politicians certifying the vote of a newly elected leader and fueling disinformation about elections to weaken the trust and integrity of the system?

Re: The world needs a non-profit search engine

#203

Post by rocketbop »

amelius wrote: post #166
larsrc wrote: post #155

Disclaimer: I work for Google, though far away from Search. Regardless of search engine design, there's HUGE money in SEO. Any successful search engine will be gamed. Do you have the developer power to go red-queen against all the large companies in the world?

I think Google search is using the wrong approach. When I'm looking for e.g. a new camera, I want to use my network which I trust . E.g. I want to ask "what camera would HN recommend?" We should think more about how we can use trust as a basis for how we explore the internet.

Personally I don't ask my network or friends for options on such things because people tend to have a positive bias towards things we have invested money in.

Interestingly summarized on a Lifehacker some time ago. https://lifehacker.com/the-psychology-of-a-fanboy-why-you-ke...

I like my friends but I don't want to get my news or politics or shopping advice from them.

Re: The world needs a non-profit search engine

#204

Post by 8organicbits »

Sujeto wrote: post #178

Most of the time you want answers from a certain place, be it reddit, or stackoverflow. It's usually easy enough to add the site, by simply writing its name, but it could be easier. I'm thinking right now this: - Compile a browser without the cross origin limitations - Make a site that uses iframes with all the answer-providing websites in it - Simply focus the text input in the site/iframe you want and search away -…

Recompiling a browser is a pretty heavy lift. DuckDuckGo allows one text box to be rerouted to a different search engine with a "bang".

https://duckduckgo.com/bang

You could also build your own, most search engines have a specific pattern to how they encode the search term in the URL. Although, I suppose that doesn't support auto-complete

Re: The world needs a non-profit search engine

#205

Post by kreeben »

blowski wrote: post #190
kreeben wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wouldn't the world become a little bit better if they did? Earning karma on HN is not the easiest thing. I would hate to speak for all of us but collectively, don't you think we have a pretty good marketspeak alert system here?

I’ve got 10k karma by making pithy criticisms of Node.js and Kubernetes. Do you therefore trust my opinions on US healthcare?

I would, if what you say were to make a whole lot of sense, otherwise, no.

You know how it works here. We would strip you of your internet points if you start being nonsensical.

Re: The world needs a non-profit search engine

#206

Post by eterevsky »

defrost wrote: post #42
eterevsky wrote: post #27

> Google tries to work out which sites are interesting by how long you spend on the site. How would Google know how long you spend on the site? It only sees what links you clicked and doesn't know what happens next. (Unless the website uses Analytics, but Analytics doesn't affect search ranking.)

Let's not forget they also have a very popular browser that itself collects and bundles back home a lot of usage infomation from most of its user base: https://www.ghacks.net/2021/03/16/wonder-about-the-data-goog...

I think this is a bit misleading. Chrome gets access to various data to enable various features -- for example to pass your location to the website (when you allow it to do so). Browsing history is used e.g. to power URL auto-completion.

This doesn't mean that this data can be used to inform Google Search ranking. That would be very shady and potentially illegal. I work for Google, and even though I do not work specifically on Search ranking, this doesn't sound like something that could be happening.

Re: The world needs a non-profit search engine

#207

Post by closedloop129 »

zaarn wrote: post #133
happymellon wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Get 3 people to scrape it and see if there are significant differences. Some might, because of A/B testing or news updating, but even updating news will get a positive similar page and those that don't should probably fall into an exceptions category until it can be determined what can be done about it. Maybe a flag in the URL to give you a static page or just accept that it changes often enough that even faked pages…

Then I'll just add 3 million bots to the network (or just enough to have about 50%) and I can guarantee to win the A/B test against an honest client most of the time.

Then OP has to do things that don't scale: Review some pages and identify a subset that can be trusted. Then OP can compare their downloads to new accounts and mark the bots.

Re: The world needs a non-profit search engine

#208

Post by laserbeam »

> [google gets 40 billion a year from search.] I can’t even conceive how big it is. Just 1% of 1% of this would be more money than I’d know what to do with ($4m).

Ouch. I wish you the best but that statement makes me lose hope. Employees are expensive. Servers aren't exactly cheap either. And unexpected mistakes along theyl way cost a lot.

Re: The world needs a non-profit search engine

#209

Post by DisjointedHunt »

vineyardmike wrote: post #172
DisjointedHunt wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And that money goes to support many industries beyond search itself. The author really needs to get off a computer for a minute and understand the economics of the web as it stands today and how the free ad supported model supports millions of peoples livelihoods before jumping to "This is all bullshit"

While I agree that they may need to better consider the economics - both of the engine and the websites that may SEO it- that doesn’t mean we should just assume as supported is the way to go or the only way to support people. The economy of today looks different than 20 years ago or 20 years before that. Doesn’t mean we shouldn’t grow and change.

I respect that. I guess my point is "Grow and change with a decent understanding of what the present state enables"

A search engine like Google isn't just a search engine as the author describes it. It is a very integral part of the economy of the internet and just labelling a simplistic interpretation of the present state as "Evil" with an academically poor write up of what a viable alternative is does little good.

Re: The world needs a non-profit search engine

#210

Post by zaarn »

closedloop129 wrote: post #207
zaarn wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then I'll just add 3 million bots to the network (or just enough to have about 50%) and I can guarantee to win the A/B test against an honest client most of the time.

Then OP has to do things that don't scale: Review some pages and identify a subset that can be trusted. Then OP can compare their downloads to new accounts and mark the bots.

Then the botnet will just be honest for like a year before it abuses the network. Even better because now honest new clients can be kicked as they disagree with the bot majority. So now the network bleeds users.
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