Live data from Hacker News

A Surprising Side of Carl Sagan

nautil.us

11–20 of 31 posts

Re: A Surprising Side of Carl Sagan

#11
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Babylonians used based 60 for at least some things, but even that seems unwieldy, and even taking everything in between as equally useful provides only 58 distinct sequences of digits in pi. The control implied is basically the power to create all the universes laws (and the math we can learn in it) from scratch.

It has been a very long time since I read the book, but if I remember correctly the first message was actually found in base 11 (a picture of a circle). Back then it hadn't been decided yet if the distribution of the digits of pi are such that all finite numbers can be found in it or not. Some years ago I read about some proof that they can. That means that "Carl Sagan was right!" in whatever encoding you like can be…

Back then it hadn't been decided yet if the distribution of the digits of pi are such that all finite numbers can be found in it or not. Some years ago I read about some proof that they can.

I would be curious to hear more. As far as I know that is still a conjecture.

Re: A Surprising Side of Carl Sagan

#12
post #7

That part of the book ( Contact ) really bugged me. The definition of pi is what determines the digits of pi, FULL STOP. There's no room whatsoever, for any sort of agent to 'leave a message' in those digits. I would think even a full-on theist would be embarrassed to suggest otherwise.

I haven't read the book, but... Aren't the digits of pi randomly distributed? So then, you can encode literally any message you want by picking an offset into them. Could even design a "compression" algorithm where a message is designated by its offset, though I'm guessing it won't be very efficient in practice.

https://github.com/philipl/pifs

Re: A Surprising Side of Carl Sagan

#13

I thought this article was going to be about Sagan's notorious ego[1] and lack of expertise and mathematical chops as an astronomer (Sagan was noted to have often asked for help from colleagues to do simple calculus). Alas, it's just another puff piece. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_Macintosh_7100#Codename_...

I'm a huge fan of his work, and was greatly influenced by Cosmos, watching it as a child. I don't really care if he had a big ego or wasn't the best at math. What he did better than anyone else was to convey the sense of wonder. He maintained curiosity and skepticism in equal measure. That is hard to do, but understanding and communicating the sense of wonder to the masses is even harder - and I'm very grateful that he did.

"If their culture has not given them all the tools they need to pursue this great quest, let us temper our criticism with kindness. None of us comes fully equipped." - Carl Sagan. The Demon-Haunted World.

Re: A Surprising Side of Carl Sagan

#14

That part of the book ( Contact ) really bugged me. The definition of pi is what determines the digits of pi, FULL STOP. There's no room whatsoever, for any sort of agent to 'leave a message' in those digits. I would think even a full-on theist would be embarrassed to suggest otherwise.

Me too. The suggestion that logic itself could be a contingent part of the universe (best mechanism for making something like this true) just seems wrong, and is anti-scientific, in any case. Not sure how to dispose of the idea, though, hence the unease.

Re: A Surprising Side of Carl Sagan

#15

I thought this article was going to be about Sagan's notorious ego[1] and lack of expertise and mathematical chops as an astronomer (Sagan was noted to have often asked for help from colleagues to do simple calculus). Alas, it's just another puff piece. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_Macintosh_7100#Codename_...

>Sagan was noted to have often asked for help from colleagues to do simple calculus

Interested in reading more about this.

Re: A Surprising Side of Carl Sagan

#16

I loved that part at the end of the book! It's the sort of thing that makes me love sci-fi: A "What-the-hell-if?" question to ponder and toy with. And to spark the reglious part of our brains; even (especially?) in non-religious people. In his books, Sagan encourages people to feel as in awe of the natural world as some do with religion. With that in mind, it fits. And, as little mysticism can be fun in a world with…

> in awe of the natural world as some do with religion

I have a real problem with the distinction between "religious people" and "non-religious people" because it presumes a distinction that I don't think exists. Everyone takes something to be the highest good. Most philosophers (for most of human history, anyway) and what you call religious people typically take God to be the highest good, the supreme summum bonum. Others worship pleasure or power or Man or nature or whatever else. In this sense, everyone is religious. We just differ about what the highest good is and what Man's orientation toward that good is.

What you call religious people do experience awe at creation. Indeed, God is not generally knowable directly, but creation is taken to tell us about the creator or first cause (what is in the effect must be in some way in the cause for you cannot give what you do not have).

> mysticism can be fun in a world with rules.

Two problems. First, mysticism isn't obscurantism. I believe Rahner somewhat obnoxiously called mystery "inexhaustible intelligibility" which is to say that true mystery is fully intelligible, but we cannot exhaust the knowing of that thing. I might imagine this to be something like trying to swallow the Nile. There's no end to it. The mystery par excellence for Catholics, then, is the beatific vision.

Second, what do you mean by "rules"? There are no rules, but things do have natures and what we call "scientific laws" are just shorthand descriptions of tendencies of things of a certain nature. There are no externalized laws "out there" that "govern" the world from without, imposing order onto what is otherwise some kind of unintelligible chaos. Things themselves are ordered by virtue of what they are. It's important not to commit the reification fallacy here w.r.t. "law". Furthermore, it almost sounds like you're saying that what you call religion is somehow antithetical to there being natures and principles. On the contrary, that is essential to something like Catholicism. Read the first few verses of the Gospel of John. Jesus is identified with the Logos, which is to say something like the order of the universe which was made incarnate in the hypostatic union. Natural law theory, something traditionally embraced by the Catholic Church, presupposes not only the utter intelligibility of the universe, but that things have natures and that the basis for ethics is human nature.

So what I sense here is a number of presuppositions, among them that "religion" (a word itself too broad and vague) is essentially (and only) an emotional phenomenon, which, in the case of something like Catholicism, isn't true.

Re: A Surprising Side of Carl Sagan

#18

I thought this article was going to be about Sagan's notorious ego[1] and lack of expertise and mathematical chops as an astronomer (Sagan was noted to have often asked for help from colleagues to do simple calculus). Alas, it's just another puff piece. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_Macintosh_7100#Codename_...

Do you have actual proof or citations to suggest he wasn’t good at math? Also that’s not necessarily a bad thing. A good scientist can and should understand their limitations and collaborate accordingly.

The fact of the matter remains that he was more academically active than the current crop of science evangelists (cough NDT) and was more relatable at least in his TV persona. Unless he was straight up evil in his life his ego doesn’t matter and is more likely not surprising.

Still interested in the citations though.

Re: A Surprising Side of Carl Sagan

#19
Interesting that it’s an article about Carl Sagans SciFi side and it doesn’t mention that he’s the one who suggested the aliens in 2001 be just a big monolith without form. Also arguably a better sci-fi film (and more cerebral?) than Contact.

I love Contact myself but it was clearly not exceptional. I’d rate it comparably to 2010, 2001’s sequel.

For me it’s banalaity arises from its following of the one sci-fi trope that always disappoints me - the existence of an unexplained force/alien/species/molecule that transcends known physics as the main plot point. Pretty much every sci-fi show movie novel has this component and I’m just tired. The only two movies I know that don’t have it are the Martian and Gattaca. Those are the exceptional sci-fi works if you ask me.

PS: please don’t mention the moon, I hope we can keep the discussion to sci-fi works that are logically consistent at the least.

Re: A Surprising Side of Carl Sagan

#20
post #7

That part of the book ( Contact ) really bugged me. The definition of pi is what determines the digits of pi, FULL STOP. There's no room whatsoever, for any sort of agent to 'leave a message' in those digits. I would think even a full-on theist would be embarrassed to suggest otherwise.

I haven't read the book, but... Aren't the digits of pi randomly distributed? So then, you can encode literally any message you want by picking an offset into them. Could even design a "compression" algorithm where a message is designated by its offset, though I'm guessing it won't be very efficient in practice.

[deleted]
Post reply on HN