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Cruise’s Robot Car Outages Are Jamming Up San Francisco

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Re: Cruise’s Robot Car Outages Are Jamming Up San Francisco

#31
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Explain how trains solve the last mile problem? The thing that roads already solve?

Sure, so I’m from a tiny town in New Jersey. I was used to having to drive 30 minutes to the train station as a kid, and there are no buses there, so car ownership is mandatory. Took a long time to realize that next to one of the buildings in town was a train station. And twenty years ago there were buses, too. Anyway, solve the last mile by funding transit and rebuilding trains. We had them before, we should have th…

Why can't efficient self driving cars also be public transportation?

What if we had a publicly funded self driving car network?

No more drunk drivers mowing down children, no more gigantic parking lots everywhere (like uber, you wouldn't likely get in the same car that took you there).

It would also almost certainly reduce traffic fatalities to near zero.

In my opinion the main benefit is the most overlooked - NOT spending X hours of your own mental bandwidth and focus worrying about crashing a deadly vehicle. You could spend that time reading/learning, relaxing watching a movie, or any number of activities other than driving your metal coffin around.

Obviously there are a lot of hurdles to get there, but let's not throw the baby out with the bath water.

Re: Cruise’s Robot Car Outages Are Jamming Up San Francisco

#32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am willing to bet that if self-driving cars come along, they will see strong sales/rental/deployment, however they end up working in Europe, or Japan, or wherever else you have in mind as some place that has "already solved this problem."

That only raises more questions. People will buy them, of course. People buy cigarettes, heroin, and NFT's. Will they actually meet high enough safety standards in these places? Will they reduce commute times? In other words, are they actually going to deliver the long-haul, end-all-be-all transit solution that many of its proponents imagine they will? Or is it just a nice-to-have feature that will make driving a lit…

I don't know that anyone believes that driverless cars are a long-haul transit solution.

Will they be the end-all-be-all? I mean, that's an easy question to answer: no. Universally. For anything you want to bring up. Nothing is perfect.

It seems to me that you're making very weak claims dressed up in very strong language.

Re: Cruise’s Robot Car Outages Are Jamming Up San Francisco

#33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That only raises more questions. People will buy them, of course. People buy cigarettes, heroin, and NFT's. Will they actually meet high enough safety standards in these places? Will they reduce commute times? In other words, are they actually going to deliver the long-haul, end-all-be-all transit solution that many of its proponents imagine they will? Or is it just a nice-to-have feature that will make driving a lit…

I don't know that anyone believes that driverless cars are a long-haul transit solution. Will they be the end-all-be-all? I mean, that's an easy question to answer: no. Universally. For anything you want to bring up. Nothing is perfect. It seems to me that you're making very weak claims dressed up in very strong language.

Ok.

Re: Cruise’s Robot Car Outages Are Jamming Up San Francisco

#34
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> so we build giant parking lots at our metro train stations No. The comment you're replying to specifically said "walk", while the comment at top of thread specifically mentioned that building trains "requires a move towards high-density housing". High density housing, trains, and walking is a solved transportation solution for cities with much higher/denser populations than we have in North America. Getting there f…

What cities or countries did this successfully? Were they as dependent on cars as American cities tend to be?

What does past success have to do with anything? We need to solve this problem. For crying out loud, it doesn't have to look like something else that someone else did. We can be innovative! It isn't our first time!

Re: Cruise’s Robot Car Outages Are Jamming Up San Francisco

#35

Self-driving cars are a solution for a problem that has already been solved. Build trains. But of course, this doesn't benefit automakers, requires a move towards high-density housing that NIMBY's and certain classes of investors oppose, so instead we'll create an entirely new class of problems by allowing these companies to unleash their insufficient technology on public roads.

Not going to happen as long as energy is cheap in the US.

The rest of the developed world didn't shift back to public transport because they enjoy the company of strangers so much, but out of necessity.

Without domestic production of fuel a transport system is vulnerable to fuel price/availability swings.

Re: Cruise’s Robot Car Outages Are Jamming Up San Francisco

#36
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Explain how trains solve the last mile problem? The thing that roads already solve?

Sure, so I’m from a tiny town in New Jersey. I was used to having to drive 30 minutes to the train station as a kid, and there are no buses there, so car ownership is mandatory. Took a long time to realize that next to one of the buildings in town was a train station. And twenty years ago there were buses, too. Anyway, solve the last mile by funding transit and rebuilding trains. We had them before, we should have th…

it sounds like that'd work where you're from, probably because it's a tiny town. you can probably walk to restaurants, coffee shops, grocery stores and pharmacies, right? so you mostly need transit for commuting to the city, which is cake.

the suburbs are hell. everything's far. walking is dangerous and unpleasant. the city's sprawled, so everyone commutes to a diffuse cloud of points between the cities.

I hate living in the suburbs because I'm a wheelchair user, and walkable places are safer and more accessible. so I like your idea, I just think the burbs are beyond saving.

Re: Cruise’s Robot Car Outages Are Jamming Up San Francisco

#37

Self-driving cars are a solution for a problem that has already been solved. Build trains. But of course, this doesn't benefit automakers, requires a move towards high-density housing that NIMBY's and certain classes of investors oppose, so instead we'll create an entirely new class of problems by allowing these companies to unleash their insufficient technology on public roads.

I hate seeing this premise. It is railfan navelgazing. I like rails and ride them frequently. Rails are not the future for passenger commuting, outside of the middle-long distances that heavy rails serve.

What AV addresses is primarily a last-mile problem. Last mile is all about the personal transport solution, and cars are just the largest of those. The physics and geometry of cars means that they are more expensive because they are literally more mass being moved around. Bikes and scooters have become much better personal transport recently because they now have electric assist options, and so are more accessible for more situations and capable of pulling heavy loads. So the problems of cars are already being addressed from one end; bike-friendly infrastructure is lagging behind in much of the world, but it's also one of the cheapest changes you can make to a road, and far cheaper than adding a new metro stop.

Once AV is adopted, the physical economics remain the same, but the economics of rental change; you don't have to go where the fleet is, it shows up at the door. But that doesn't result in everyone riding a personal limo. Smaller is cheaper for personal transport in the last mile, and that does not change just because you replaced the driver. Cost reduction will take place in shared rental fleets. Cost reduction means cars get smaller, so car infrastructure can get smaller, so last-mile alternatives gain space, so transit gains space and ridership. AV is not in conflict with transit, rather, it redefines the bottlenecks of transit modalities. If you need a sit-down vehicle with a cabin for your trip, you still don't need additional empty seats - unless you pay a premium, you will be crammed into the lightest, smallest thing that is roadworthy. Only an enthusiast will bother with lugging a huge vehicle around town if you can rent that size on demand. That goes for the car and it goes for the train. You still want to have transit to cover longer distances along major corridors, but the effective coverage of all stops is bolstered if you can pick up a bike or scooter share at either end of the trip.

Re: Cruise’s Robot Car Outages Are Jamming Up San Francisco

#38
post #31
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, so I’m from a tiny town in New Jersey. I was used to having to drive 30 minutes to the train station as a kid, and there are no buses there, so car ownership is mandatory. Took a long time to realize that next to one of the buildings in town was a train station. And twenty years ago there were buses, too. Anyway, solve the last mile by funding transit and rebuilding trains. We had them before, we should have th…

Why can't efficient self driving cars also be public transportation? What if we had a publicly funded self driving car network? No more drunk drivers mowing down children, no more gigantic parking lots everywhere (like uber, you wouldn't likely get in the same car that took you there). It would also almost certainly reduce traffic fatalities to near zero. In my opinion the main benefit is the most overlooked - NOT sp…

Sure, so the most direct answer is that a belief in self-driving cars that are safe and reliable and accessible isn’t grounded in any current evidence. We’ve spent a few billion on development and spun up dozens of companies and so far accomplished - relative to expectations - almost nothing. No self-driving trip across the country, like Musk thought we’d do years ago. The self-driving fleet in SF keeps breaking down.

Maybe in the future it’ll suddenly go from bad technology to good, but in my mind it’s like betting on generalized AI or small-scale cold-fusion nuclear: it could happen, but not a great idea to bet the farm on it.

Second. Car form factor is inefficient. Are we doing 1-seaters? 4 seaters with 3 empty seats usually? So every car has four wheels, its own computer, its own engine, and so on? In intersections, even with self-driving technology that does not exist currently and is showing no signs of existing any time soon - even with that technology, you’re still threading individual cars through each intersection? It’s not great.

Third. I’ve seen no evidence that the people talking about self-driving cars as a shared or car share-like resource actually believe in it. Remember Musk talking about how public transit is gross because other people breathe on you? Or the tendency of Americans to treat their cars as sacred property, so much that they’ll get in a fistfight with anyone who touches them? Transforming self-driving cars to some sort of public-ish transit requires just as much worldview shifting as actually using public transit, but none of the benefits.

So: if self-driving cars suddenly exist, sure. But right now, there is no baby. There is only bathwater.

Re: Cruise’s Robot Car Outages Are Jamming Up San Francisco

#39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know that anyone believes that driverless cars are a long-haul transit solution. Will they be the end-all-be-all? I mean, that's an easy question to answer: no. Universally. For anything you want to bring up. Nothing is perfect. It seems to me that you're making very weak claims dressed up in very strong language.

Ok.

Let me put it a different way for you:

All of this conditional on self-driving cars really being actually solved, such that an autonomous car is, say, better than the 75% driver on the road.

I expect the overwhelming majority of long-haul (say, >200 miles) passenger transport to happen via planes and trains, just like today.

I do not expect that commute times will be substantially shorter -- indeed, I wouldn't be surprised if they were mildly longer.

I DO expect that people will be able to use their commute time productively (they could work during it and either increase their productivity or decrease their hours) and/or be able to spend less money on transit, because they're using shared vehicles.

I DO expect that short-haul public transportation would suffer a significant decline in ridership, as it would be outcompeted by driverless carss.

I do NOT expect that short-haul public transportation would be entirely killed, it will still have some advantages, especially in very dense areas.

I am agnostic about how wise the investment in autonomous vehicles will end up being -- it depends on how much additional investment is needed to get to this (hypothetical) mode of full self-driving, and to what extent many actors are able to reach full-self-driving at the same time and drive commoditization of self-driving cars. But who cares? It's not my money, this has overwhelmingly been paid for by private actors.

Do you disagree with any of that?

Re: Cruise’s Robot Car Outages Are Jamming Up San Francisco

#40
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, so I’m from a tiny town in New Jersey. I was used to having to drive 30 minutes to the train station as a kid, and there are no buses there, so car ownership is mandatory. Took a long time to realize that next to one of the buildings in town was a train station. And twenty years ago there were buses, too. Anyway, solve the last mile by funding transit and rebuilding trains. We had them before, we should have th…

it sounds like that'd work where you're from, probably because it's a tiny town. you can probably walk to restaurants, coffee shops, grocery stores and pharmacies, right? so you mostly need transit for commuting to the city, which is cake. the suburbs are hell. everything's far. walking is dangerous and unpleasant. the city's sprawled, so everyone commutes to a diffuse cloud of points between the cities. I hate livin…

I agree. My town has a certain saving grace: it’s really old. The initial town plan was made before cars, so it was, at one point, a sort of walkable place. It isn’t anymore because of redesigns that favor cars and incredible sprawl, but there are still some of those bones in there.

“Modern” car dependent suburbs are beyond saving. We should save the towns we can and resist this suburb-style development in and around cities.

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