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Former Japan PM Shinzo Abe Unconscious After Shooting; Man in Custody

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Re: Former Japan PM Shinzo Abe Unconscious After Shooting; Man in Custody

#371

Post by madeofpalk »

shadowgovt wrote: post #359
madeofpalk wrote: post #343

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"It's the exception that proves the rule".

In this case, it proved both rules. One of the ostensible purposes of the Second Amendment is for Americans to be able to hold their own government in check via the private capacity to cause violence. Well, lacking anything even approximating a Second Amendment, an individual Japanese citizen just forced leadership change.

You think in America citizens should shoot Bush or Obama to "hold their own government in check"? You think that's a valid exercise of the second amendment?

Re: Former Japan PM Shinzo Abe Unconscious After Shooting; Man in Custody

#372

Post by azinman2 »

kafkaesque wrote: post #67
azinman2 wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So remove hundreds of countries, and then you’ve got what left?

You are comparing the worst countries with a rich, average country to make said country look like the safest, which is deceiving.

Pick any list related to crime world wide, and Japan is in top 10 or far better. It is one of the safest in the world no matter how you slice it. Why is that such a controversial statement? It’s like you’re moving the goal post, and Japan still gets the goal.

Re: Former Japan PM Shinzo Abe Unconscious After Shooting; Man in Custody

#373

Post by _-david-_ »

Nextgrid wrote: post #348
daenz wrote: post #344

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The largest demographic (hundreds of millions of people), which you seem to have left out, is law abiding citizens looking to protect themselves and their families.

Protect themselves from what? Unhinged people with guns? Seems like recursion. People in other countries where guns are illegal seem to do just fine without having to protect themselves using their own firearms.

>Protect themselves from what?

Bears, wolves, mountain lions, elk, moose, bison are some of the things.

Re: Former Japan PM Shinzo Abe Unconscious After Shooting; Man in Custody

#374

Post by _-david-_ »

Aeolun wrote: post #228
kumarvvr wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, but why would a complete ban on citizens owning guns, unless for very special cases not severely curb gun violence?

Japan has 9 cases of gun deaths, the US had 35,000. You’d almost think it has an effect.

You are including suicides in the US gun deaths which makes it a bit of weird comparison.

Re: Former Japan PM Shinzo Abe Unconscious After Shooting; Man in Custody

#375

Post by lazide »

Hamuko wrote: post #319
lazide wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Looks like it was home made. Guns are not complicated machines, anyone motivated with even basic household tools can make one if they want to do so. And it looks like someone did.

Although in this case, the suspect had worked for the Japan Maritime Self-Defense Force, so it wasn't just your average person off the street. At least I imagine that being in the navy would entail much more domain knowledge about firearms than your lay perosn.

Not very likely, military arms are so many steps removed from ‘improvised weapon’ that the only thing they share in common is they use burning propellant to shove a projectile out the end. Everything from chemistry, techniques, methods, materials is different.

Military is all about ‘at scale’ and ‘ready and waiting after decades’.

A couple pipes and end caps, a drill, some wire of different diameters, a 9v battery, and some common household chemicals and time and you’re good to go with what I saw the dude using.

Some odds you’d blow yourself up, but that’s easy to test out in the woods or whatever remotely.

All the above can be gleaned with some easy google searches or YouTube, including people making them and showing all the steps.

Re: Former Japan PM Shinzo Abe Unconscious After Shooting; Man in Custody

#376

Post by lazide »

wirthjason wrote: post #84

And after debating gun violence all week with my friends in the wake of the 4th of July shooting in Highland Park I made an example of Japan and it’s low gun violence. Now this happens. Crazy stuff still happens in Japan but it’s usually a knife or ax. But guns and Abe are on another level.

Having spent some time in Japan and knowing many Japanese folks and many Western folks who have lived and worked in Japan a long time, my impression is that Japan is (like many East Asian countries) obsessed with looking perfect.

It often means actually nearly perfect (on some axis, at least in Japan, but with clear ‘acceptable’ issues on others), but coverups, suppressing inconvenient facts, oppressing or exiling troublesome elements, etc. all happen too.

Folks call it ‘face’, and it isn’t unique to East Asia, but it is very pronounced in Japan.

Japan also being an island and very culturally homogenous, makes it possible to take it to real extremes not doable elsewhere, and it can be a very oppressive environment if you don’t fit in (and are trying to do so).

If you’re ok with being treated as a foreign curiosity, everyone is very friendly and helpful.

With everything tightening the screws lately (Covid, economy, etc), it’s another example (like the attempted subway gassings) of something slipping out of control and blowing up where it can’t be swept under the rug.

Re: Former Japan PM Shinzo Abe Unconscious After Shooting; Man in Custody

#377

Post by mullingitover »

daenz wrote: post #354
Nextgrid wrote: post #348

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Protect themselves from what? Unhinged people with guns? Seems like recursion. People in other countries where guns are illegal seem to do just fine without having to protect themselves using their own firearms.

People in unarmed countries get stabbed/beaten/shot if their attacker is larger/stronger/younger than them. Here, older/weaker people have a chance to protect their lives. Firearms are frequently used defensively to stop attacks. Here's a couple from the past 2 weeks : https://abc7.com/moreno-valley-intruder-shot-homeowner-inves... https://www.wfla.com/news/pinellas-county/man-fatally-shot-a...

Anecdotal evidence is great for appeals to emotion, but the data tells a different story[1].

[1] https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/hicrc/firearms-research/gun-thr...

Re: Former Japan PM Shinzo Abe Unconscious After Shooting; Man in Custody

#378

Post by daenz »

mullingitover wrote: post #377
daenz wrote: post #354

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People in unarmed countries get stabbed/beaten/shot if their attacker is larger/stronger/younger than them. Here, older/weaker people have a chance to protect their lives. Firearms are frequently used defensively to stop attacks. Here's a couple from the past 2 weeks : https://abc7.com/moreno-valley-intruder-shot-homeowner-inves... https://www.wfla.com/news/pinellas-county/man-fatally-shot-a...

Anecdotal evidence is great for appeals to emotion, but the data tells a different story[1]. [1] https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/hicrc/firearms-research/gun-thr...

I can show you hundreds of news stories of defensive gun use from the past 6 months, or you can be satisfied with a single study, which also claims:

>women never use guns to protect themselves against sexual assault

I don't know why anyone would choose to believe something that is so easily falsifiable with a 2 minute google search[0]

0. https://www.kfvs12.com/story/9273275/accused-rapist-shot-kil...

Re: Former Japan PM Shinzo Abe Unconscious After Shooting; Man in Custody

#379

Post by mullingitover »

daenz wrote: post #378
mullingitover wrote: post #377

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anecdotal evidence is great for appeals to emotion, but the data tells a different story[1]. [1] https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/hicrc/firearms-research/gun-thr...

I can show you hundreds of news stories of defensive gun use from the past 6 months, or you can be satisfied with a single study, which also claims: >women never use guns to protect themselves against sexual assault I don't know why anyone would choose to believe something that is so easily falsifiable with a 2 minute google search[0] 0. https://www.kfvs12.com/story/9273275/accused-rapist-shot-kil...

As the saying goes, the plural of anecdote is not data. It's great that you read the page I cited, but you cherry picked your quote. Here's the full section:

> 11. Self-defense gun use is rare and not more effective at preventing injury than other protective actions

> Victims use guns in less than 1% of contact crimes, and women never use guns to protect themselves against sexual assault (in more than 300 cases). Victims using a gun were no less likely to be injured after taking protective action than victims using other forms of protective action. Compared to other protective actions, the National Crime Victimization Surveys provide little evidence that self-defense gun use is uniquely beneficial in reducing the likelihood of injury or property loss.

> This article helps provide accurate information concerning self-defense gun use. It shows that many of the claims about the benefits of gun ownership are largely myths.

> Hemenway D, Solnick SJ. The epidemiology of self-defense gun use: Evidence from the National Crime Victimization Surveys 2007-2011. Preventive Medicine. 2015; 79: 22-27.

Emphasis added.

Re: Former Japan PM Shinzo Abe Unconscious After Shooting; Man in Custody

#380

Post by shadowgovt »

madeofpalk wrote: post #371
shadowgovt wrote: post #359

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In this case, it proved both rules. One of the ostensible purposes of the Second Amendment is for Americans to be able to hold their own government in check via the private capacity to cause violence. Well, lacking anything even approximating a Second Amendment, an individual Japanese citizen just forced leadership change.

You think in America citizens should shoot Bush or Obama to "hold their own government in check"? You think that's a valid exercise of the second amendment?

Are you asking me or the Founding Fathers?

I think it's a terrible and apocryphal idea and America would be well served by repealing the Second Amendment. The perpetual loss of civilian life to violent urges consummated by easy access to deadly firearms is in no way worth the possibility that Americans may need to rise up and shoot a bunch of their own politicians someday.

But among the reasons that it was put into place is definitely the idea that you must arm the citizenry because a government that disarms its citizenry is a tyranny. The US had, in living memory of the people who wrote the Constitution, just fought a war against their legitimate government and won it because, among other things, colonial life had made the average American familiar with a gun. They saw that as a useful facet of their culture to preserve.

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