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Twitter Layoff Started Today

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Re: Twitter Layoff Started Today

#211

Post by ProfessorLayton »

least wrote: post #118
hughesjj wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't and Shouldn't are different things. Also, new hires exist. Not everyone has had time to actually accumulate wealth from their compensation. Not everyone was taught financial literacy before being dumped into a high stress job. Not everyone is in good health. I think sympathy and compassion are fine ideals to hold for any of our working class cohort.

Are highly educated, highly compensated, and highly privileged folk considered working class now? Financial literacy is something that desperately needs to be part of the curriculum in high school and I can empathize with people that will struggle as a result of their layoffs even if it's due to their own money mismanagement, but software engineers being laid off from a tech giant are definitely not working class in…

If someone needs to work to make ends meet, then yes they're working class. The capitalist class are those that make their income from the labor of others (The working class).

Re: Twitter Layoff Started Today

#212

Post by reaperducer »

edgefield wrote: post #98
throwaway5959 wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seriously. I wouldn’t be surprised if the lowest total comp was in excess of $200k/year. If you can’t have 6 months in cash sitting in a high yield savings account on that, there’s no amount of severance that will help you.

$200K in a HCOL area with a family is middle income and you’d be hard stretched to save much if anything.

$200K in a HCOL area with a family is middle income and you’d be hard stretched to save much if anything.

So you live like a poor person does until you've saved up enough money to deal with emergencies. Then you can live the lifestyle you desire.

It's what people have done for generations and generations. This isn't rocket science.

Re: Twitter Layoff Started Today

#213

Post by kristjansson »

Dig1t wrote: post #120
falcolas wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's pretend some of these SF twitter employees have families. $4k in rent monthly, 4k in general living expenses (these are based off median figures available publicly) A bit over $96k in living costs. Assuming that $200k in total comp includes about 25% in stock (based off publicly reported comp packages for twitter employees), and a combined state/federal 35% tax rate... They have no spare money to save without a…

I think you're right with your numbers and I do have some sympathy for these people, but not too much. Living in an insane COL area like the Bay with crazy high taxes is a choice, nobody forced these people to do that. There are tons of job options in other places with a much lower COL and lower taxes. I got the hell out of the Bay as soon as I could and would definitely never choose to live there with a family.

TBF Twitter kinda did tell them to live there.

Re: Twitter Layoff Started Today

#214

Post by ribosometronome »

fleddr wrote: post #168
hughesjj wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't and Shouldn't are different things. Also, new hires exist. Not everyone has had time to actually accumulate wealth from their compensation. Not everyone was taught financial literacy before being dumped into a high stress job. Not everyone is in good health. I think sympathy and compassion are fine ideals to hold for any of our working class cohort.

"Not everyone was taught financial literacy" That's not how adulthood works. The world doesn't care if you learned it nor will it teach you. Besides, it doesn't take a course in finance to understand basic financial responsibility.

I don't understand the utility of this viewpoint.

Adults can teach themselves most things given the right tools and incentive. Your viewpoint essentially means nothing is ever problematic ever. Invasive rhinos released onto SF streets causing property damage? Why didn't SF residents learn to defend themselves and their property damage. The world doesn't care if you learn or not. Climate change leading to drought and the entire world is starving? Should have done a little thinking ahead and stockpiled food.

Re: Twitter Layoff Started Today

#215

Post by throwaway5959 »

Willish42 wrote: post #134
throwaway5959 wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seriously. I wouldn’t be surprised if the lowest total comp was in excess of $200k/year. If you can’t have 6 months in cash sitting in a high yield savings account on that, there’s no amount of severance that will help you.

This is an asinine assumption. I doubt even 10% of recruiting employees at Twitter have a HYSA, let alone make in excess of $200k/year. As stated below [1], those affected seem to be recruitment (which lines up with the LinkedIn post's user profile saying they are in recruiting). Even ignoring this, there are thousands of situations where layoff + stock blackout can be financially devastating even for people with "we…

I never said I wasn’t sympathetic. It’s bullshit that they’re getting laid off. But this isn’t the 1950s. We’re on our own.

Re: Twitter Layoff Started Today

#216

Post by throwaway5959 »

fleddr wrote: post #187
qbasic_forever wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The median home value in SF is ~$1.5 million. A typical mortgage on a home like that is ~$4-5k per month. So you're assuming folks have $25-30k in liquid cash hanging around all the time. Not unrealistic but certainly not everyone working at tech companies there has that kinda cash. And that's before you factor in other costs like property taxes, insurance, etc. that you'll need to cover too.

I'm stunned really. I'm from the Netherlands, known for its comparatively poor pay for engineers as well as high costs of living. Despite that, from day 1, when my salary was at its lowest and I was still single, I saved 25% of my salary. A lot of years later and no longer single, I've build up multiple years in savings. Even more than that if I add my spouse. And the funny thing is that the need to do this applies l…

Exactly. I know people who make $50k/year that have six month emergency funds.

Re: Twitter Layoff Started Today

#217

Post by seoaeu »

KerrAvon wrote: post #130
xienze wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If someone cant accumulate roughly 15% of their annual compensation in savings, while earning $200-400k/yr, then I have no idea what else could be done here to help. The thing with those crazy Valley salaries that you hear about here is that a lot of the time a good amount is in the form of stock that vests on a rolling basis. So maybe you get $150K in cash and $75K in stock. After 401k, California and federal taxe…

Yup. Pretty much cut 45-50% off the top for federal and state taxes immediately. Divide the remainder between stock that won't actually vest for years and your base pay. It's way more complicated than "you're making six figures!!! why can't you SAV3!!1 too much avocado toast!" Should people be more disciplined? Isn't it possible to do better? Sure, totally. But let's start with reality and not boomer bootstrap fan fi…

If you are paying 45% of your income in state/federal/FICA taxes, then your after tax income is over $330,000/year.

Re: Twitter Layoff Started Today

#218

Post by throwaway5959 »

throwaway9870 wrote: post #50
throwaway5959 wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seriously. I wouldn’t be surprised if the lowest total comp was in excess of $200k/year. If you can’t have 6 months in cash sitting in a high yield savings account on that, there’s no amount of severance that will help you.

While saving 6 months might be possible, I would love for you to point me to a high-yield savings account.

Ally/Marcus has 1% savings account with basically no risk. These accounts aren’t meant to grow, they’re meant to be risk free hence a relatively low rate compared to equities.

Re: Twitter Layoff Started Today

#219

Post by rayiner »

projectazorian wrote: post #154
rayiner wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> compassion are fine ideals to hold for any of our working class cohort. “Working class” lol. Class-wise, engineers are like the junior executives in the Mad Men era, or junior lawyers and bankers today. They are not only well compensated, but have tons of impact (and therefore leverage) as individual contributors. The “working class” are the folks cleaning the building who are fungible commodities. You can be a 10x…

> “Working class” lol. Class-wise, engineers are like the junior executives in the Mad Men era, or junior lawyers and bankers today. They are not only well compensated, but have tons of impact (and therefore leverage) as individual contributors. Anyone who relies on wage labor for their income (as opposed to earnings from capital) is working class. That is the defining feature of the working class. Unless you could r…

> Anyone who relies on wage labor for their income (as opposed to earnings from capital) is working class.

Since when is that the definition? Doctors and lawyers have never been considered part of the "working class." Software engineers, and other categories of jobs that didn't really exist in the 1930s, are more similar to those professionals than to working class people.

> People love to erode class solidarity by claiming that only people whose incomes are below a certain level are working class

You've got it exactly backward. The top 10% has been pulling away from the median American for decades now. They're beneficiaries of the same forces that have produced outsized growth for the top 0.1%. They write the software, paper the deals, put together the PowerPoint presentations, etc., that enable those trends.

The delusion among skilled professionals that they are part of the "working class," and their influx into the putatively labor-aligned political party, has had a tremendously negative effect on working class interests. They champion policies like globalization and mass immigration that benefit them at the expense of factory and farm workers. They spent divert vast amounts of political capital to social issues important to highly educated people, at the expense of economic issues important to the working class. And they make it impossible to pay for expansive social services the way other developed countries pay for them: by heavily taxing the upper middle class.

Re: Twitter Layoff Started Today

#220

Post by ChrisLomont »

gwerbret wrote: post #200

> So- in addition to losing their jobs, which Twitter assured employees would not happen I'm not that old, but even I remember a time when companies, at least in principle, would invest in their employees (via stable employment, regular raises, mutual trust) in return for employees investing in the companies (innovation, extra effort, dedication, championing the company brand). Today, we have this: - Companies using…

>even I remember a time when companies, at least in principle, would invest in their employees (via stable employment, regular raises, mutual trust) in return for employees investing in the companies (innovation, extra effort, dedication, championing the company brand).

Has there ever been really any difference? I know rose colored glasses make people think times past were better in many cases, but I find no evidence that things in this regard are really any different for the majority of people.

For example, this [1] FRED historical data series shows layoff rate to be extremely flat for 20 years. BLS used to track some series also that were flat for as far as I can find data. Here's [2] a slightly different dataset that is flat back to 1967.

Any solid evidence that things have ever been any different?

> In spite of the downsides of unions, this turn of affairs is really an argument in favor of universal unionization.

Unions often drive out workers at the benefit of those getting union jobs, lowering employment. For example, see [5] and similar papers.

EDIT: 2 more datasets [3,4], back to 1919, still pretty flat.

[1] https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/JTSLDR

[2] https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/LNS13023654

[3] https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/M08291USM175NNBR

[4] https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/M0852AUSM497NNBR

[5] https://www.nber.org/digest/dec02/whose-employment-affected-...

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