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Nuclear turn green as EU parliament approves new taxonomy

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Re: Nuclear turn green as EU parliament approves new taxonomy

#471

Post by otter-rock »

black_puppydog wrote: post #430
otter-rock wrote: post #394

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People often don't realize that intermittent renewables must be paired with backup generation or storage. But energy storage at the scale of a 100% renewable system is currently an unsolved problem. So you really only have two options: 1. Continue to back up with fossil fuels 2. Temporarily back up with nuclear Check my comment history for a debate on nuclear safety.

> Temporarily back up with nuclear I think the assumption that we can build nuclear baseload capacity faster than storage solutions is... just that. An assumption. Needs citation.

I'm saying there's no storage solution yet. Even combining all storage types, you'd still run out of materials (battery) or locations (hydro) before finishing.

It's not speed vs speed. It's speed vs forecasted capacity.

Re: Nuclear turn green as EU parliament approves new taxonomy

#472

Post by martin_a »

willcipriano wrote: post #461
martin_a wrote: post #447

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would you bet that there's not a second failure which distributes nuclear waste in our atmosphere?

You mean like a coal plant operating under normal conditions?

[flagged]

Re: Nuclear turn green as EU parliament approves new taxonomy

#473

Post by jpgvm »

pfdietz wrote: post #393
philipkglass wrote: post #279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Chinese nuclear reactors built in China are completed faster than in other countries, and they probably [1] cost less. But it's not clear that Chinese nuclear reactors built in Western countries would be especially affordable. Consider this recently signed deal to build China's Hualong One reactor in Argentina: https://www.neimagazine.com/news/newsargentina-optimistic-ab... It is supposed to take 8 years to build and…

China is also installing enormous amounts of pumped hydro for storage.

China is building all forms of energy as quickly as possible. They are still building coal plants while all this is going on because they are that desperate for additional generation capacity.

Re: Nuclear turn green as EU parliament approves new taxonomy

#474

Post by colechristensen »

worik wrote: post #455
colechristensen wrote: post #453

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let the waste sit in place for decades to decay away much of its radioactivity, dig a hole in a geologically boring mountain away from people, dump waste in the hole. Alternative first step: build breeder reactors to recycle most of the waste into nuclear fuel and dump the smaller amount of leftovers in the mountain.

> dig a hole in a geologically boring mountain away from people Where? Where on Earth will you find a place that will still be like that in 200,000 years.

Deep holes in mountains in deserts in tectonically boring locations in the middle of plates.

Re: Nuclear turn green as EU parliament approves new taxonomy

#475

Post by anonporridge »

worik wrote: post #442

OMG. The first sentence: "designate natural gas and nuclear as environmentally sustainable energy sources" I argue that nuclear is making our descendants pay for our current consumption because of the waste. It can be argued that there are storage mechanisms that are safe tor two hundred millennium (I do not accept those arguments, but it is an argument). But natural gas: It is not sustainable (it is a fossil fuel, i…

Morality is the privilege of the rich.

In times of war, morality is often the first casualty.

Re: Nuclear turn green as EU parliament approves new taxonomy

#476

Post by oynqr »

q1w2 wrote: post #410
pydry wrote: post #312

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Germany the maximum insurance liability for nuclear disasters is $2.5 billion. In the US it's $0.35 billion. Fukushima cost $800 billion. This happened essentially because without a liability cap the entire insurance industry considers nuclear power to be ridiculously risky. So the government, who wanted to protect investors, stepped in. I feel like a lot of people who dont know this want to educate me about how s…

There is a world of difference between a modern Gen III+ reactor, and the 1960s design of Fukushima and Chernobyl. It's like comparing the dangers of doctors using 12th century blood-letting and leeches vs getting an MRI.

At least the leeches won't irradiate me

Re: Nuclear turn green as EU parliament approves new taxonomy

#477

Post by xorcist »

BenoitP wrote: post #460
Patrol8394 wrote: post #363

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's talk Fukushima ?

Fukushima caused exactly one death from ionizing radiation: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fukushima_Daiichi_nuclear_di... Fossil fuel air pollution cause one fifth of premature death worldwide: https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/c-change/news/fossil-fuel-air-p... Do the sources I use suit you? Is it enough to convey sense about the orders of magnitude involved? And I didn't even talk about CO2 and the impending climate c…

Exactly no one is advocating the use of fossil fuels to replace nuclear.

In a debate, it is much better to counter the actual arguments instead of the more convenient ones.

Re: Nuclear turn green as EU parliament approves new taxonomy

#478

Post by jpgvm »

philipkglass wrote: post #279
jpgvm wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It appears to be expensive in the West for now. I'm waiting to see how China's rollout goes before declaring that it's straight up expensive. Even if you buy into crap like Chinese reactors being less safe or more poorly regulated they should still be a good benchmark for what is necessary to reach scale nuclear reactor production. Especially their small designs which are expected to be mass produced in factories and…

Chinese nuclear reactors built in China are completed faster than in other countries, and they probably [1] cost less. But it's not clear that Chinese nuclear reactors built in Western countries would be especially affordable. Consider this recently signed deal to build China's Hualong One reactor in Argentina: https://www.neimagazine.com/news/newsargentina-optimistic-ab... It is supposed to take 8 years to build and…

The most interesting project is the Chinese HTR-PM[1] which is a small ~250MW design that is specifically engineered to be run in the Chinese interior where it will displace coal power plants.

It lacks the more advanced passive safety of molten-salt designs but it's significantly more advanced than reactors being built anywhere else in the world and is a natural stepping stone to molten salt to replace the helium coolant at some stage.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HTR-PM

Re: Nuclear turn green as EU parliament approves new taxonomy

#479

Post by orangepurple »

worik wrote: post #455
colechristensen wrote: post #453

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let the waste sit in place for decades to decay away much of its radioactivity, dig a hole in a geologically boring mountain away from people, dump waste in the hole. Alternative first step: build breeder reactors to recycle most of the waste into nuclear fuel and dump the smaller amount of leftovers in the mountain.

> dig a hole in a geologically boring mountain away from people Where? Where on Earth will you find a place that will still be like that in 200,000 years.

Ancient geologically stable rock formations exist

Re: Nuclear turn green as EU parliament approves new taxonomy

#480

Post by philipkglass »

jpgvm wrote: post #478
philipkglass wrote: post #279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Chinese nuclear reactors built in China are completed faster than in other countries, and they probably [1] cost less. But it's not clear that Chinese nuclear reactors built in Western countries would be especially affordable. Consider this recently signed deal to build China's Hualong One reactor in Argentina: https://www.neimagazine.com/news/newsargentina-optimistic-ab... It is supposed to take 8 years to build and…

The most interesting project is the Chinese HTR-PM[1] which is a small ~250MW design that is specifically engineered to be run in the Chinese interior where it will displace coal power plants. It lacks the more advanced passive safety of molten-salt designs but it's significantly more advanced than reactors being built anywhere else in the world and is a natural stepping stone to molten salt to replace the helium coo…

I think that the HTR-PM is interesting too. I submitted a story about it 6 months ago, but it didn't get a lot of traction here:

"China Is Home to First Small Modular Nuclear Reactor"

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29804547

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