Alain de Botton on existential maturity and what emotional intelligence means • Hacker News Board

Re: Alain de Botton on existential maturity and what emotional intelligence means

#101

Post by saiya-jin » Thu, Jul 07, 2022, 12:50 PM UTC

phs318u wrote: post #48

roody15 wrote: post #29

I am a bit older and have worked in IT now for almost 2 decades. (44 years old) I honestly think the general premise here holds true and perhaps applies to many of us here in computed related occupations. It seems many of us focused on STEM STEM STEM or COMPUTERS COMPUTERS COMPUTERS in education but perhaps are emotionally infantile to an extent. How many of us write programs, support infrastructure, design gadgets ……

I used to worry about being "successful" until I had an epiphany triggered by my father's death. Do you want to know what success is? Visualise the day of your funeral. Who is there? Are they sad, devastated, in tears? Are they looking at their watch or relieved you're finally gone? What does it say on your headstone? "Here lies roody15. Beloved father, husband, son. Forever in our hearts" Or will it say, "Here lies…

I use variant of this - myself on the proverbial death bed, looking back through decades and seeing decisions if good or bad.

It changes the motivation slightly - great family bonds definitely yes if possible. But I won't care less if tons of other people would come and praise me, or not. I want to be proud of life lived, and I am good enough to judge that. Not harming others to be successful in personal life, happy, balanced person.

Why I don't care that much for opinion of others - ie if you live your life beyond what anybody expected from you, this will produce some envy even in closest peers. They see points where you chose different path to greater success than them, and successes compound over time, hard to avoid regrets there. What a lot of people do in such situation is stopping sharing any info about cool great things happening with practically anybody, in same manner when properly rich live maintain façade of relatively frugal life. Possible, but its caving to want-to-be-liked emotions.

Living life of adventures, exotic travel, extreme sports (in my case, this is what makes me tick and it makes me tick very well).

I am definitely the type that works to live... I mean wasting more life than necessary in the office inevitably leads to regrets later in life, regardless of the amount of wealth. Sometimes learning from others mistakes is enough, especially without save positions available.

Re: Alain de Botton on existential maturity and what emotional intelligence means

#102

Post by feet » Thu, Jul 07, 2022, 12:54 PM UTC

russelldjimmy wrote: post #77

kstenerud wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And here's an old man telling you that you absolutely CAN be poor. Poverty is a trap that's very difficult to escape because it saps all of your mental energy [1]. The mental exhaustion just from dealing with the day-to-day on the edge completely stunts your mental and emotional growth and severely limits your ability to respond to opportunities, which makes it even harder to escape. While the rich are learning how t…

I hope you some day will be free of needing to win arguments with strangers on the internet. Peace.

I hope that some day people are actually able to understand the perspective of others instead of just viewing it as a battle to be won or lost

Re: Alain de Botton on existential maturity and what emotional intelligence means

#103

Post by mythrwy » Thu, Jul 07, 2022, 12:55 PM UTC

phs318u wrote: post #48

roody15 wrote: post #29

I am a bit older and have worked in IT now for almost 2 decades. (44 years old) I honestly think the general premise here holds true and perhaps applies to many of us here in computed related occupations. It seems many of us focused on STEM STEM STEM or COMPUTERS COMPUTERS COMPUTERS in education but perhaps are emotionally infantile to an extent. How many of us write programs, support infrastructure, design gadgets ……

I used to worry about being "successful" until I had an epiphany triggered by my father's death. Do you want to know what success is? Visualise the day of your funeral. Who is there? Are they sad, devastated, in tears? Are they looking at their watch or relieved you're finally gone? What does it say on your headstone? "Here lies roody15. Beloved father, husband, son. Forever in our hearts" Or will it say, "Here lies…

This is true, but when I'm dead I won't be there, so what people say isn't that relevant.

However, if I don't put in the hours now, I might get to enjoy life less because I'll have less resources to do so. (Within reason of course, life really does come first. But work is still important).

People have odd ideas about their amazing historical impact. The way people will remember them, being "on the right side of history".

But 99.9% of people won't really be remembered at all beyond a generation or two, if that. And canned speeches at funerals last for like 10 minutes, certainly not living my life for that.

Re: Alain de Botton on existential maturity and what emotional intelligence means

#104

Post by burrows » Thu, Jul 07, 2022, 12:55 PM UTC

phs318u wrote: post #48

roody15 wrote: post #29

I am a bit older and have worked in IT now for almost 2 decades. (44 years old) I honestly think the general premise here holds true and perhaps applies to many of us here in computed related occupations. It seems many of us focused on STEM STEM STEM or COMPUTERS COMPUTERS COMPUTERS in education but perhaps are emotionally infantile to an extent. How many of us write programs, support infrastructure, design gadgets ……

I used to worry about being "successful" until I had an epiphany triggered by my father's death. Do you want to know what success is? Visualise the day of your funeral. Who is there? Are they sad, devastated, in tears? Are they looking at their watch or relieved you're finally gone? What does it say on your headstone? "Here lies roody15. Beloved father, husband, son. Forever in our hearts" Or will it say, "Here lies…

> Do you want to know what success is?

You’re not describing what success “is”. You are just describing something then calling it “success”.

The whole setup is like bad Platonic philosophy.

Socrates: what is success?

Useful idiot: Money!

Socrates: Ah, but will your money miss you after you die?

Useful idiot: Wow! Deep!

Re: Alain de Botton on existential maturity and what emotional intelligence means

#105

Post by concinds » Thu, Jul 07, 2022, 1:31 PM UTC

mistersquid wrote: post #33

balsam wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Alluded in the article: his stuff is categorized as “self-help”. As a social phenomenon, “self-help” is believers-only. Since de Botton’s academically inclined, it’s probably the best of a horrid torrid bunch?

> Alluded in the article: his stuff is categorized as “self-help”. As a social phenomenon, “self-help” is believers-only. From the article: > De Botton is careful to acknowledge that this line of inquiry might trigger the modern intellectual allergy to the genre of learning dismissively labeled self-help. And yet he reminds us that the quest for self-refinement has always accompanied the human experience and animated…

Right before writing that, De Botton wrote:

> “The emotionally intelligent person knows that they will only ever be mentally healthy in a few areas and at certain moments, but is committed to fathoming their inadequacies and warning others of them in good time, with apology and charm.”

Is that "wise"? Who reads this and nods?

Self-help is rarely written by successful people. Napoleon Hill (a fraud) was no exception.

It focuses on superficial behavioral and cognitive changes, based on "wisdom" that half the audience will cringe at (see Twitter gurus). The more intellectual kinds of self-help (like De Botton, as opposed to Tony Robbins) essentially help people domesticate themselves, by becoming low energy, excessively self-reflective (which is what the word "neurotic" means) and permanently stuck in their head, as opposed to taking action in the real world.

The more you believe you are afflicted by various subjective, non-clinical, non-diagnosed emotional issues, the more they will consume you. You will be raising waves where there is no wind.

The most effective self-help is either the Lindy kind (reading the Bible; joining a Buddhist monastery), or just aligning your behavior with what you want out of life, without caring for the "childhood reasons" for your behavior. "Self-awareness" is a lie; you are just projecting meaning and patterns where none exists. The ultimate embodiment of this navel-gazing is Lacanian psychoanalysis, which has enormous suicide rates. Just reflect on whether your behavior is aligned with your goals, and choose to change your behavior accordingly, without imagining that you need to change an entire machinery within your mind beforehand.

Re: Alain de Botton on existential maturity and what emotional intelligence means

#106

Post by Swenrekcah » Thu, Jul 07, 2022, 2:09 PM UTC

jacquesm wrote: post #86

Swenrekcah wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That depends on how you classify arts. I meant it as a catch all for the entire entertainment industry. Related to that are other “creatives” such as advertising. Then a good chunk of people are either politicians, political operatives or lawyers, those are all heavily people oriented jobs. Edit: Forgot sports and the entire industry around that.

Ah good point. To me arts = artists, not entertainers, but you are totally right they should probably be included. When I think art I think paintings, statues, not movies or books but that's a shortcoming on my end.

Totally understandable, it was poorly worded on my part.

Re: Alain de Botton on existential maturity and what emotional intelligence means

#107

Post by mantas » Thu, Jul 07, 2022, 2:13 PM UTC

mythrwy wrote: post #103

phs318u wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I used to worry about being "successful" until I had an epiphany triggered by my father's death. Do you want to know what success is? Visualise the day of your funeral. Who is there? Are they sad, devastated, in tears? Are they looking at their watch or relieved you're finally gone? What does it say on your headstone? "Here lies roody15. Beloved father, husband, son. Forever in our hearts" Or will it say, "Here lies…

This is true, but when I'm dead I won't be there, so what people say isn't that relevant. However, if I don't put in the hours now, I might get to enjoy life less because I'll have less resources to do so. (Within reason of course, life really does come first. But work is still important). People have odd ideas about their amazing historical impact. The way people will remember them, being "on the right side of histo…

People who lived before you shaped you. While physically you won't be there, you'll pass the torch to the next generation in same way.

Those who won't be remembered after a couple generations still shape that next generation that will shape the next generation and so on.

That's closest to immortality you can get.

Re: Alain de Botton on existential maturity and what emotional intelligence means

#108

Post by NateEag » Thu, Jul 07, 2022, 2:15 PM UTC

anthk wrote: post #96

verisimi wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It seems many of us focused on STEM STEM STEM or COMPUTERS COMPUTERS COMPUTERS in education but perhaps are emotionally infantile to an extent. 100%. Worse than that, I think we are even encouraged to be computer-like. We are told that AI can be conscious - that we are just a machine. As if emotions/intuition/spirituality are non-existent. The core problem for me is that the principles that drive most us are not ou…

>spirituality are non-existent. It is. It doesn't exist.

> It is. [Spirituality] doesn't exist.

The majority of people on the planet claim to practice some religion / have some spiritual practice.

I think that means spirituality exists, as it's practiced to at least some extent by billions of people every day.

Do you mean the supernatural doesn't exist?

I'd readily grant that most (maybe all?) supernatural claims cannot be falsified, but that doesn't prove they're false.

I recommend a much more limited claim, perhaps reflecting your personal experience, such as "I have found no evidence that anything supernatural exists."

Re: Alain de Botton on existential maturity and what emotional intelligence means

#109

Post by guiriduro » Thu, Jul 07, 2022, 2:23 PM UTC

nic_wilson wrote: post #95

guiriduro wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How many of us work countless hours for companies whose missions we don’t perhaps even agree with… And there you have Marxist Alienation in a nutshell, and a new thematic thread to read though, if you're interested.

It’s been a over a decade since I read any Marx but I thought alienation of labor was about the worker being alienated from the value of their labor (e.g. I get paid $10/hr to produce widgets that the employers sells for 10x the input costs and I receive none of that value) - I don’t think it was about the emotional connection the laborer had to the (non-economic) value of what was produced.

My understanding is that (amongst other things) Marxist alienation meant that the fruits of your labour are used against you / your interest / your class (as appropriate.) So the company you work for having a mission you oppose is exactly that. A capitalist who greatly marks up your product to resell would obliquely perhaps also meet that description, because paying you little keeps you dependent and stuck on a low wage (and class), while the capitalist maintains themselves in their class advantage. And with the profit from your labour can pay the gendarmes to beat you if you object in a not-well-organised way to that working relationship.

Re: Alain de Botton on existential maturity and what emotional intelligence means

#110

Post by scotty79 » Thu, Jul 07, 2022, 2:33 PM UTC

kelseyfrog wrote: post #44

scotty79 wrote: post #36

> Our energies are overwhelmingly directed toward material, scientific, and technical subjects and away from psychological and emotional ones. So little was established without a doubt about psychological and emotional stuff that there's absolutely no wonder people focus their efforts on other more material fields. People just choose to learn the domains where there's a lot to learn not just a lot to ponder.

As someone who has taken a conscious expressed interest in becoming intimately familiar with the world of social interaction and emotion, critically examining this mindset is the first step toward realizing that growth. The "measurable equals real" assumption while a fine heuristic, is just that, a generalization useful for making quick judgements, but leaves a lot on the table - empathy, emotion, personal interactio…

> The difference is striking. Dropping an absolute reliance on Cartesian rationality opened the door for real human connection.

I'm sorry. I'm not abandoning method and the process specifically designed for avoiding lying to yourself. Because, you know, I might lie to myself. More than I do now.

Science and rationality are the best tools of constructing accurate models of reality, both internal and external.

But it says nothing of purpose. However if you combine it with nihilism or absurdism you get a pretty robust framework for comfortably and efficiently tackling challenges of human condition.