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Ethereum Proof-of-Stake

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101–110 of 338 posts

Re: Ethereum Proof-of-Stake

#101

>Let’s walk through a couple theoretical scenarios where a subset of malicious validators wants to censor transactions, say those originating in FATF-blacklisted countries. Hang on a second. Just to be clear about this example, this example is walking through how Ethereum has been designed specifically to allow North Korea to transact Ethereum, and more than that, prevent anyone who dissents. Like, I mean ok, I get t…

You should understand that this is a very USA centred opinion. There’s a whole big world of different cultures and politics, and it is possible to believe there are other approaches where we reject violence and authority. It’s the usual “you’re helping drug dealers/terrorists/North Korea, but what about the children?!” state simping that ignores the violence of the existing systems, and ignores the billions of people…

I absolutely agree we should build infrastructure that allows people within oppressive regimes options with which they can resist, escape and co-ordinate.

Which is why this infrastructure, which is clearly designed to empower those regimes, is bad. Are North Koreans using crypto-currencies? Maybe, it doesn't seem like it. Is the North Korean regime using crypto-currencies? Absolutely, we repeatedly see the North Korean regime stealing, laundering and transferring crypto.

You're advocating for a theoretical possibility of helping dissidents to defend the actual reality which is that crypto is a tool of oppressive regimes.

Re: Ethereum Proof-of-Stake

#102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a gross misrepresentation of how it works in the real-world. Do you believe the same about cryptography? Since you can't understand it, and few really understand the full system, algorithms and functions, it must be "review resistant" rather than actually safe to use?

Cryptography has mathematical proofs of the underlying math that are rigorous. There are constraints such as breaking if a proof of an attack against the discrete log were to emerge or other constraints related to p=np. The implementations are also very close to formally verified if not fully formally verified. Nothing is perfect but cryptographic code has to be pretty bulletproof or a lot of systems would get owned.…

I respectfully disagree. While some cryptographic primitives are surely based on some sound math, building cryptographic systems is very hard, and when built, they ane not generally proven to be correct. Some attacks involve influencing source of randomness, whereas proofs simply assume random unguessable numbers, for example. You correctly mention unintended degradation, that is another pretty serious concern, but even when built first, most systems are incorrect, faulty and unsafe.

Proving systems to be correct in computer science is far from settled matter.

Re: Ethereum Proof-of-Stake

#103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You should understand that this is a very USA centred opinion. There’s a whole big world of different cultures and politics, and it is possible to believe there are other approaches where we reject violence and authority. It’s the usual “you’re helping drug dealers/terrorists/North Korea, but what about the children?!” state simping that ignores the violence of the existing systems, and ignores the billions of people…

Eh, no. Helping North Korea to bypass international agreements won't help us to "reject violence and authority." What authority are you talking about here specifically, what are you trying to reject? Throwing an existing system out of the window without offering anything in return is madness. Cryptocurrency won't replace all the financial and government systems that have been developed internationally for years. How…

[deleted]

Re: Ethereum Proof-of-Stake

#104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You should understand that this is a very USA centred opinion. There’s a whole big world of different cultures and politics, and it is possible to believe there are other approaches where we reject violence and authority. It’s the usual “you’re helping drug dealers/terrorists/North Korea, but what about the children?!” state simping that ignores the violence of the existing systems, and ignores the billions of people…

Eh, no. Helping North Korea to bypass international agreements won't help us to "reject violence and authority." What authority are you talking about here specifically, what are you trying to reject? Throwing an existing system out of the window without offering anything in return is madness. Cryptocurrency won't replace all the financial and government systems that have been developed internationally for years. How…

Is there a peer to peer way to stop nuclear proliferation?

Re: Ethereum Proof-of-Stake

#106
post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the more you have of the capital the more you influence the system That's not how PoS works, though?

How does it work?

PoS does not give you any power to change the rules of the system, it only makes sure that those who are invested in the system get (slightly) rewarded for good behavior and (heavily) penalized for bad behavior.

Re: Ethereum Proof-of-Stake

#107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You should understand that this is a very USA centred opinion. There’s a whole big world of different cultures and politics, and it is possible to believe there are other approaches where we reject violence and authority. It’s the usual “you’re helping drug dealers/terrorists/North Korea, but what about the children?!” state simping that ignores the violence of the existing systems, and ignores the billions of people…

I absolutely agree we should build infrastructure that allows people within oppressive regimes options with which they can resist, escape and co-ordinate. Which is why this infrastructure, which is clearly designed to empower those regimes, is bad. Are North Koreans using crypto-currencies? Maybe, it doesn't seem like it. Is the North Korean regime using crypto-currencies? Absolutely, we repeatedly see the North Kore…

Turns out North Korea are using crypto! To fund missile programs https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-60281129.amp

The more I think on these things, the more I think trust is a feature, not a bug

Re: Ethereum Proof-of-Stake

#108
post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Current Bitcoin usage is literally a rounding error of global energy usage (0.1%) and if wildly successful would still be https://www.lynalden.com/bitcoin-energy/ If Bitcoin moved to PoS it would be fundamentally different. It might work for other coins since they aren't as decentralized. > Instead, proof-of-stake mainly seems less suitable for a decentralized and censorship-resistant global monetary asset, especiall…

1% of ALL energy generated just to operate a part of the world economy is a massive amount though...

Bitcoin uses less energy than Gold Mining and the Banking System https://twitter.com/topimp21/status/1542863870552936448

"Bitcoin uses 2-56 times less energy than the fiat system" https://bitcoinmagazine.com/culture/bitcoin-environmental-de...

Re: Ethereum Proof-of-Stake

#109
post #6

I can't see governments allowing PoW to continue to exist in our current climate (in all senses). How would Bitcoin ever move over to PoS like this? Would it just be a Bitcoin hard fork?

> governments allowing PoW Is there any precedent for this? Have governments ever ruled on how people can use their computational power?

> Is there any precedent for this? Have governments ever ruled on how people can use their computational power?

Yes, they have. For instance, the DMCA is a USA law which, among other things, forbids people in the USA from using their computational power to circumvent an access control system (for instance, by brute forcing a cryptographic key) which happens to be preventing access to a copyrighted file. An older example is that encryption within France used to be severely restricted (quoting from https://www.theregister.com/1999/01/15/france_to_end_severe_... which is from before the current laws: "Until 1996 anyone wishing to encrypt any document had to first receive an official sanction or risk fines from F6000 to F500,000 ($1000 to $89,300) and a 2-6 month jail term. Right now, apart from a handful of exemptions, any unauthorised use of encryption software is illegal. Encryption software can be used by anyone, but only if it's very easy to break.")

Re: Ethereum Proof-of-Stake

#110
post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>the more you have of the capital the more you influence the system? what a novel concept! That is exactly how Proof of Work works as well. What makes PoW and PoS implementations like Ethereum's capture resistant is that they are governance-free, so capital is NOT used to influence governance. It is only used as a signal that is costly so as to prevent Sybil attacks.

The "Move" to POS breaks the myth of the system being immutable and "governance-free". The people with a lot of stake in the system can change or prevent change to the system. One of the major reasons that POS takes so long to implement is that individuals and syndicates that have invested a lot of money in to POW infrastructure block it and warn that it "doing it hastily" will harm the stability of the system. And t…

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