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Ethereum Proof-of-Stake

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91–100 of 338 posts

Re: Ethereum Proof-of-Stake

#91

>Let’s walk through a couple theoretical scenarios where a subset of malicious validators wants to censor transactions, say those originating in FATF-blacklisted countries. Hang on a second. Just to be clear about this example, this example is walking through how Ethereum has been designed specifically to allow North Korea to transact Ethereum, and more than that, prevent anyone who dissents. Like, I mean ok, I get t…

Did you just assume that Etherium is American?

The US assumes everyone is American when enforcement is concerned. Ask Kim Dotcom.

Re: Ethereum Proof-of-Stake

#92
post #6

I can't see governments allowing PoW to continue to exist in our current climate (in all senses). How would Bitcoin ever move over to PoS like this? Would it just be a Bitcoin hard fork?

> governments allowing PoW Is there any precedent for this? Have governments ever ruled on how people can use their computational power?

Ignoring your actual question; do you think it's reasonable that we don't introduce new societal rules as technology progresses?

Re: Ethereum Proof-of-Stake

#93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The spec is open and documented pretty clearly.[1] [1] https://notes.ethereum.org/@vbuterin/Sys3GLJbD#Misc

That's just a random function description. The main thing here is how is seed calculated and analysis of whether it seed is safe from network partition, DDoS, malicious attack, nodes being offline, forks etc.

Also clearly documented and open to researchers to examine. The full code for the various Eth2 clients is open source.

[1] https://eth2book.info/altair/part2/building_blocks/randomnes...

[2] https://eth2.incessant.ink/book/06__building-blocks/02__rand...

Re: Ethereum Proof-of-Stake

#94
post #6

I can't see governments allowing PoW to continue to exist in our current climate (in all senses). How would Bitcoin ever move over to PoS like this? Would it just be a Bitcoin hard fork?

Current Bitcoin usage is literally a rounding error of global energy usage (0.1%) and if wildly successful would still be https://www.lynalden.com/bitcoin-energy/ If Bitcoin moved to PoS it would be fundamentally different. It might work for other coins since they aren't as decentralized. > Instead, proof-of-stake mainly seems less suitable for a decentralized and censorship-resistant global monetary asset, especiall…

Even if the 0.1% figure is correct, I find it a lot of energy (and growing) for something found useful by so few. Reducing it to a percentage and saying it's ok because it's within a rounding error is like taking the entire population of New York City (8.38 million), killing them all, and saying it doesn't matter because it's "literally a rounding error of global population (0.1%)".

Re: Ethereum Proof-of-Stake

#95

>Let’s walk through a couple theoretical scenarios where a subset of malicious validators wants to censor transactions, say those originating in FATF-blacklisted countries. Hang on a second. Just to be clear about this example, this example is walking through how Ethereum has been designed specifically to allow North Korea to transact Ethereum, and more than that, prevent anyone who dissents. Like, I mean ok, I get t…

Yes, if you actively and knowing break the law, you might get punished for it. Not sure what's new here? If you don't want to connect to North Korea, block connections coming from North Korea, it's like one or two commands of iptables.

The sanctions go a little bit further than that though. Financial institutions are not merely blocked from accepting transactions from the IP region of North Korea, but actually from doing business with a whole list of companies and individuals with ties to NK. To comply with the sanctions regulation you would need to have a lookup service listing the owner of every wallet and for every transaction you validate, check if any of the wallets involved belongs to a sanctioned company or individual.

I don't think "but I didn't know that it was a NK wallet!" is going to hold up in court either. There are laws regulating the minimum Know-Your-Customer a money transmitting company needs to perform and when the regulators come knocking you need to be able to show your procedures for that and how they lead to compliance with the law.

The real question is whether courts will rule that POS validators are "money transmitters" in a legal sense. To me it's kinda obvious that they are, since without the action of the validators no money would get transmitted. No doubt there will be much water under the bridge before that gets settled though.

Re: Ethereum Proof-of-Stake

#96
post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, if you actively and knowing break the law, you might get punished for it. Not sure what's new here? If you don't want to connect to North Korea, block connections coming from North Korea, it's like one or two commands of iptables.

Ignorance of the law is not a valid defense. It might get you a lighter sentience, but don't count on that. You are expected to know all the laws that apply to all the activities you do.

[deleted]

Re: Ethereum Proof-of-Stake

#97
post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, the problem with this is that the misinformation stays around, influencing future discussions when it comes up again, when people keep repeating the same thing over and over. It would be more interesting to discuss new flaws in the protocol, or things that generally haven't been discussed before.

Do you think that I mean direct influence? that they can reprogram contracts? Don't straw man me. Large miners do have power, the power to destabilize the system. The same power large POW syndicates have that delays POS will be there in POS only in a more direct literal way. What do you think will happen if a more decentralized verification system will be proposed once there are people and institutions that will have…

> this is not how any system involving human works and cryptographic technology is not going to change that.

How is a system that allows people with ~$30k to have any type of influence worse than the status quo?

Re: Ethereum Proof-of-Stake

#98
post #74

>Let’s walk through a couple theoretical scenarios where a subset of malicious validators wants to censor transactions, say those originating in FATF-blacklisted countries. Hang on a second. Just to be clear about this example, this example is walking through how Ethereum has been designed specifically to allow North Korea to transact Ethereum, and more than that, prevent anyone who dissents. Like, I mean ok, I get t…

On the other hand, North Korea is the way it is because they've rejected our neo-liberal ideology. I think much like TOR did for Iraq this would actually move them away from China and closer to us. EDIT (out of comment quota): I'd hope not but I'm not convinced they aren't. It sure seems to degenerate into that more often than not.

> North Korea is the way it is because they've rejected our neo-liberal ideology

I don't think the dystopic human torture camps are a necessary part of "rejecting the neo-liberal ideology".

Re: Ethereum Proof-of-Stake

#100

>Let’s walk through a couple theoretical scenarios where a subset of malicious validators wants to censor transactions, say those originating in FATF-blacklisted countries. Hang on a second. Just to be clear about this example, this example is walking through how Ethereum has been designed specifically to allow North Korea to transact Ethereum, and more than that, prevent anyone who dissents. Like, I mean ok, I get t…

Yep, that is going to be an interesting thing to observe. I wonder if USA based validators will just have to block NK and Iran. What a mess.

Which is how the system works. 109% of people can not run NK txs if they decide to. It is totally democratic.
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