Live data from Hacker News

Large-scale ‘sand battery’ goes online in Finland

energy-storage.news

251–260 of 307 posts

Re: Large-scale ‘sand battery’ goes online in Finland

#251
post #8

As an American it completely breaks my expectations that district heating not only works can be more efficient that decentralized heating. The amount of heat lost just moving water from the water heater on one side of the house to the shower on the other is ridiculously high in houses here. The idea that you can insulate well enough to efficiently move heat across a city is amazing to me.

Well, if you want to hear from the darkside... Romania.

Badly maintained infrastructure (as an American you're probably familiar with the idea). Keeps breaking down. Not enough money invested to bring it to modern standards. Pipes are not well insulated, they break down constantly, huge leakages and losses.

Cost of heating is so high that about 20% or more of the entire Bucharest city budget (I've just checked, budget: ~$1.8 billion, subsidies: ~$450 million; Bucharest has about 2.2 million people) is spent on subsidizing heat for poor families. Heating/hot water sometimes go down for hours or even days in random districts.

In many districts district heating is mandatory because everyone who can pull out does so and that makes the system even more inefficient, which would cause the collapse of the entire system, hurting poor families even more.

Re: Large-scale ‘sand battery’ goes online in Finland

#252

The ‘sand battery’ explained: Insulate a lot of sand and heat it with an electrical element (300-500°C). When you need the energy back, pump air into it and you get hot air to power generators and heat buildings.

It's important to remember with most of these thermal batteries is that they are limited in efficiency by the laws of thermodynamics, both when putting the energy in and then again pulling it back out. The net round trip total power loss is usually well above 50%.

From other articles, the key is that, if the energy recovery happens during cold months and the residual energy in heat form is used to feed municipal heating networks, efficiency can be up to 90%.

Re: Large-scale ‘sand battery’ goes online in Finland

#253

The ‘sand battery’ explained: Insulate a lot of sand and heat it with an electrical element (300-500°C). When you need the energy back, pump air into it and you get hot air to power generators and heat buildings.

It's important to remember with most of these thermal batteries is that they are limited in efficiency by the laws of thermodynamics, both when putting the energy in and then again pulling it back out. The net round trip total power loss is usually well above 50%.

Thats for electrical power, if all you want to do is extract heat, you only major loss is thermal cooling over time and in the pipes. You should be able to get most of your energy back from a well-insulated system

Re: Large-scale ‘sand battery’ goes online in Finland

#254
post #251
post #8

As an American it completely breaks my expectations that district heating not only works can be more efficient that decentralized heating. The amount of heat lost just moving water from the water heater on one side of the house to the shower on the other is ridiculously high in houses here. The idea that you can insulate well enough to efficiently move heat across a city is amazing to me.

Well, if you want to hear from the darkside... Romania. Badly maintained infrastructure (as an American you're probably familiar with the idea). Keeps breaking down. Not enough money invested to bring it to modern standards. Pipes are not well insulated, they break down constantly, huge leakages and losses. Cost of heating is so high that about 20% or more of the entire Bucharest city budget (I've just checked, budge…

[deleted]

Re: Large-scale ‘sand battery’ goes online in Finland

#255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which only makes more sense for the New York to be heated by a network of pipes.

Portions of NYC are heated by pipes. ConEd operates the largest commercial steam system in the world. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_City_steam_system

>Today, Consolidated Edison operates the largest commercial steam system in the world (larger than the next nine combined).

Huh, neat.

Re: Large-scale ‘sand battery’ goes online in Finland

#256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Russia's invasion of Ukraine was the unilateral issue here, everything else was a response to that. But either way I'd characterise this as a 'payment dispute' because the issue was how Russia wanted to be paid, not that Finland was barred from paying them at all.

There is nothing unilateral in two imperialist powers fighting. Just like there was nothing unilateral in WW1 or WW2.

Sure, the start of World War 2 was very multilateral: Poland wanted not to get invaded, Nazi Germany and the USSR both disagreed.

The parallels with the current situation are left up to the reader.

Re: Large-scale ‘sand battery’ goes online in Finland

#257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It was next to the hot water line and not insulated (enough) and it had pretty much just been sitting there all night.

Lucky you didn't get legionella. That is not up to spec, cold water lines should always be below 25°c. I have never seen such an installation, even in development countries it was done correctly.

same, been in two developing countries with similar heating system, never seen such a problem. sounds disturbing

Re: Large-scale ‘sand battery’ goes online in Finland

#258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sometimes this is intentional to keep paths clear. Idaho is much colder than Leipzig in winter.

You want to do that with the cooler water that is coming back to the power plant after the heat is delivered to the customer. Thus you use lower value heat to melt the streets. Assuming you do combined heat & power, as a bonus you get a small benefit on the power cycle as you get colder water into the pwrturbine cooling.

The sidewalks are actually the tops of tunnels that carry power and steam in both directions.

Re: Large-scale ‘sand battery’ goes online in Finland

#259
post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Great. How much energy do you spend clearing paths?

It's a fun set of optimisations: to get the path-clearing effect do you run the pipes on less optimal routes (greater capital costs), or do you using varying grades of insulation (less effective under paths to get the clearing effect, more effective on the short-cuts between paths), and so on. I hope Idaho uses these scenarios in their maths lessons, in place of the hoary "the phone company needs to put a line across…

[deleted]

Re: Large-scale ‘sand battery’ goes online in Finland

#260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

20 years!? That's absurd. It never makes economic sense to tear down a house if you're paying for it (above the land value). It depends on building codes in your area and such but my house is nearly 40 and it's not even close to end of life. Hell, the house I grew up in is still there and it's gotta be approaching 80.

> It never makes economic sense to tear down a house if you're paying for it (above the land value). The land value is the key. Often, houses in the 50s-80s were built in what was suburbs or actual small villages back then, with enormous land surrounding them because land was cheap. Nowadays, the urban areas have grown and grown, and with them the desire for space for people to live on - even here in Europe, in Munic…

20x in Munich? That is new to me.
Post reply on HN