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I analyzed hospital price lists so you didn't have to

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Re: I analyzed hospital price lists so you didn't have to

#61
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would advocate a more direct form of damages: a hospital that does not comply may not charge more than the minimum over all hospitals in a 500 mile radius for any procedure. A hospital that does charge more and is caught must refund double the difference. Furthermore, no contractual provision may penalize patients for attempting to seek that double refund, and a class action lawsuit to recover the difference that a…

How about if you can’t post the prices, you simply aren’t allowed to bill for any services?

This is the one that's simple to enforce. No price, no bill.

Re: I analyzed hospital price lists so you didn't have to

#62
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>So I guess I should shop around by moving cities No, the solution to most social ills in America is to simply not be poor. If you are poor, stop it. Then you don't have to worry about any of this. Consider abortion, a procedure now outlawed in many US states. If you're not poor, you can just pay to travel to another state or country, have the procedure, do some sight-seeing, and come home. The law has no de facto ef…

> No, the solution to most social ills in America is to simply not be poor. If you are poor, stop it. Those people deserve it. I mean, some people chose to be born to wealthy parents; if you were too lazy to do that why should I have to reward your laziness by paying to look after you? Really, some people can be so selfish! > It is very nice indeed to be a VIP in an American hospital My gf had a life threatening illn…

VIP treatment means a private room and doctors who personally really actually pay attention to your treatment because the administrator has reminded them to do that, or your friend from med school/business school has asked them to do that. It is not conferred by a blanket.

BTW there is a carrot and a stick going on. Yes, the hospital admin wants to make VIP patients happy for donations, but they also want to avoid making the patient unhappy because they have resources to sue, and win. All of this is highly motivational.

Re: I analyzed hospital price lists so you didn't have to

#63

When High Deductible Insurance was introduced the supposed concept was to "give employees a stake in their costs, and therefore lower them for both employer and employee." However, even today doing so is very challenging, and before laws like this it was essentially impossible. There's no way to shop around American healthcare, with the system itself working against you at every turn (e.g. doctors prescribing named b…

>So I guess I should shop around by moving cities No, the solution to most social ills in America is to simply not be poor. If you are poor, stop it. Then you don't have to worry about any of this. Consider abortion, a procedure now outlawed in many US states. If you're not poor, you can just pay to travel to another state or country, have the procedure, do some sight-seeing, and come home. The law has no de facto ef…

"No, the solution to most social ills in America is to simply not be poor. If you are poor, stop "

In healthcare not being poor is sufficient. You actually have to be quite well off in order to not worry about cost.

Re: I analyzed hospital price lists so you didn't have to

#64
post #20
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Especially our government. Spending. Salaries. It all needs to be public. A lot of it is. In California for example you can go look up any public employee's compensation at https://transparentcalifornia.com/

W T F https://transparentcalifornia.com/salaries/2021/gateway-comm...

That's lifetime comp.

Re: I analyzed hospital price lists so you didn't have to

#65
Wrote Hacking Healthcare for O'Reilly, created ClearHealth/HealthCloud open source EMR, managed health systems for 15+ years, blah, blah, blah.

It is very good there is are the transparency regulations. It is worth briefly explaining some of the reasons why many facitilities are having a hard time complying. There are some bad actors, absolutely true. However "Hanlons Razor" -- never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity -- definitely applies.

Many health systems are a lot more like "medical malls" than they are single monolithic enterprises. Lots of health systems use really, really old technology and also a lot of it from a company called "Epic". Epic does what it wants, when it wants and there is basically nothing anyone can do about it. There is rarely one central consistent mechanism and source of truth for pricing data because it gets generated from a complex web of different entities, systems, and processes. Herding all those cats is why it can take a health system a long time to comply. And also why a fine of even a million dollars can be small potatos vs the cost of actually complying in a timely manner.

Just one facet, MUMPS is a widely used technology which you probably haven't heard of and which very few technologists understand. Lots of people are struggling to create new code to meet the new regulations using 1970s era technology including MUMPS.

Another, a lot of health systems have been around a really long time. The insurers they work with also, (since the 1960s at least). They have Electronic Data Interchange EDI relationships built on the standard called 837. Business logic that surrounds pricing and billing is often buried in 50 years of tech debt. Everyone is deathly afraid of making too many changes too fast because when those systems break the money stops flowing and a health system will literally go insolvent. People still have hard physical lines connected to Medicare mainframes.

This is a similar situation to other regulated industries like banking, airlines, etc. Modernization is hard, time consuming and very expensive. These regulations are a good driver for all that, but it takes time. Having been in some of these boardrooms there is not typically a cartel of evil executives figuring out how to screw patients. A lot of the time it is a group of relatively normal people trying to hold up a technological and business process house of cards with chewing gum, paper clips and hope.

Disclaimer: I have been involved with the development of some of the fee schedules and health systems mentioned/criticized.

Re: I analyzed hospital price lists so you didn't have to

#66
Correct me if i'm wrong, but aren't some hospital bills/prices considered to be negotiable estimates? If so, wouldn't that skew the data?

And yes, prices should be set in stone and be easily accessible, unless it's something that is hard to evaluate due to one reason or another.

Re: I analyzed hospital price lists so you didn't have to

#67
Here's a solution: Let doctors be doctors and not glorified algorithmic-assembly-line workers. Incentivize transparency through something better than Yelp reviews. Incentivize diagnostic outpatient facilities, make them more accessible and discoverable. Especially through telemedicine if possible, but make sure they can be seen in person by someone competent if needed.

I'm sure I'll get downvoted here for this part, but government shouldn't be micromanaging care standards, even through a proxy like medicaid and medicare claim criteria. Let the citizens regulate the system instead, and government's job should be to make it easier for them to do so.

Yes, transparency can come through price lists, but prices can never go down until quality goes up first. It's just like code quality: If it's bad, you'll have to spend more time dealing with technical debt than it would have been to invest in the quality up front. Bad medical care breeds more complicated patient situations, and the rate of seriously ill patients increases as a result. Supply cannot keep up with demand.

Analyzing price lists, shaming providers into lowering prices, etc., will not solve this, nor is that idea even novel. But it may be useful as a single part of a more comprehensive strategy to solve the root of the problem.

It's great for business, especially since Michael Moore's documentary made it politically incorrect to deny medical claims for terminally or seriously-ill patients. Still bad for life expectancy, but we'll probably need another "groundbreaking" documentary before the country really wakes up to the scheme.

And for Christ's sake, stop training doctors to ask "what are your symptoms" (when they are already reasonably aware of what the type of issue is), and use more yes/no questioning about specific symptoms. If doctors can't be trained fast enough to be able to do even that, I'd think about fixing that, too.

Re: I analyzed hospital price lists so you didn't have to

#68
post #30

> CMS's price transparency law, which requires all hospitals to post their prices online in a single, machine-readable file Whoever got this legislation through deserves a pat on the back.

It was part of the ACA, but hospitals tied it up in court for a long time.

Thanks, Obama!

Re: I analyzed hospital price lists so you didn't have to

#69

Interesting to read that only 33%-50% of hospitals comply with the law and post their prices. If there's one thing this country needs to do it's demand transparency everywhere. Especially our government. Spending. Salaries. It all needs to be public.

What is the penalty for non compliance?

Re: I analyzed hospital price lists so you didn't have to

#70
post #29
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

W T F https://transparentcalifornia.com/salaries/2021/gateway-comm...

WTF about, not just the compensation, but the fact that some of these show a salary of $200k with $2.X million in benefits. Like, what? https://transparentcalifornia.com/salaries/2021/gateway-comm...

Almost certainly the value of pensions. There are teachers on that list making $65k with "benefits" of 1mm, which is probably the NPV of ~20 years of pension income.
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