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Large-scale ‘sand battery’ goes online in Finland

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Re: Large-scale ‘sand battery’ goes online in Finland

#51

Post by ethagknight »

com2kid wrote: post #40
konschubert wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a German living in a city with mandatory district heating... the end result is to be that people seem pay more for heating than they would with a decentralised system. I think that's mostly due to the high upkeep costs of the system, though, the transmission loss is quite manageable, I think. Of course there are arguments to be made that when accounting for the cost of installing a heating system, and the space it…

> As a German living in a city with mandatory district heating... the end result is to be that people seem pay more for heating than they would with a decentralised system. So, in America, it is very common for hot water tanks to suddenly fail, leaking water everywhere and causing massive amounts of property damage and even creating health hazards through mold. In a not-insane world, all hot water tanks would come wi…

This comment is wrong on many levels. Hot water heaters should last a lot longer, and when they fail it’s probably a faulty thermostat or short. Still, water heaters get a drain pan to catch leaks. Lastly, installing a leak detectors are trivial and common. Your condo may have been a bad install or not installed to code.

America moves hot water just fine.

EDIT: yes water heaters can fail. Usually due to bad install, people store stuff on the pipes or on top of the unit treating the mechanical closet like a utility storage closet for brooms vacuum ironing board stuffed in, or subjected to a freeze. Nothing wrong with the device itself, everything to do with improper install or maintenance.

Re: Large-scale ‘sand battery’ goes online in Finland

#52

Post by dubswithus »

Nick87633 wrote: post #37
dubswithus wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a hot water recirculator installed and love it. It's even faster than on demand. Faster hot water incentivizes hand washing. Just think about how many more people would wash their hands at the airport if they didn't have to wait 2 minutes (or forever) to get hot water.

I wash my hands with the cool water that initially comes out?

Cool water? What about freezing water in the winter?

Re: Large-scale ‘sand battery’ goes online in Finland

#53

Post by com2kid »

ethagknight wrote: post #51
com2kid wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As a German living in a city with mandatory district heating... the end result is to be that people seem pay more for heating than they would with a decentralised system. So, in America, it is very common for hot water tanks to suddenly fail, leaking water everywhere and causing massive amounts of property damage and even creating health hazards through mold. In a not-insane world, all hot water tanks would come wi…

This comment is wrong on many levels. Hot water heaters should last a lot longer, and when they fail it’s probably a faulty thermostat or short. Still, water heaters get a drain pan to catch leaks. Lastly, installing a leak detectors are trivial and common. Your condo may have been a bad install or not installed to code. America moves hot water just fine. EDIT: yes water heaters can fail. Usually due to bad install,…

> Lastly, installing a leak detectors are trivial and common.

I've told about a dozen people in my life that leak detectors were a thing, and they were all shocked at the info. From what I gather, their existence is not common knowledge.

> Still, water heaters get a drain pan to catch leaks.

Initial leaks yes, but eventually hot water heats fail in a dramatic fashion and spew water everywhere.

> Your condo may have been a bad install or not installed to code.

Literally every apartment complex I've lived in has had this same issue. The apartment complex's my friends live in, same issue. I figure that commercially ran complexes would be motivated to install leak detectors, but apparently not.

> Hot water heaters should last a lot longer, and when they fail it’s probably a faulty thermostat or short.

Should, sure. The warranty is 10 years on higher end models, and the last ($2000!) water heater I had fail on me failed at 9 years and 6 months.

I've seen older hot water heaters, sure, but the expectation is failure after 10 years. All the plumbers I've ever talked to have repeated exactly that. They also say that a large # of tankless units they have seen encounter motor failures after 10 years and also have to be replaced.

Re: Large-scale ‘sand battery’ goes online in Finland

#54

Post by hedora »

com2kid wrote: post #40
konschubert wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a German living in a city with mandatory district heating... the end result is to be that people seem pay more for heating than they would with a decentralised system. I think that's mostly due to the high upkeep costs of the system, though, the transmission loss is quite manageable, I think. Of course there are arguments to be made that when accounting for the cost of installing a heating system, and the space it…

> As a German living in a city with mandatory district heating... the end result is to be that people seem pay more for heating than they would with a decentralised system. So, in America, it is very common for hot water tanks to suddenly fail, leaking water everywhere and causing massive amounts of property damage and even creating health hazards through mold. In a not-insane world, all hot water tanks would come wi…

There’s a cheap ($20?) add on for our water heater that adds a conductivity sensor in the drip pan, and a shutoff valve on the inlet.

There’s a slightly more expensive variant from another company that supposedly looks at flow for the whole house, and cuts water off due to slow leaks or burst pipes.

I’m shocked that the water heater cutoff valve isn’t required by code. In contrast, plumbed drain lines for water tank flushing have a much worse payoff per dollar and are required by code around here. (When I’m feeling cynical, I assume that the codes here are designed to subsidize contractors while maximally screwing over home owners.)

Edit: the plumbed lines don’t actually help with leaks; so they do nothing that a garden hose would not accomplish.

Re: Large-scale ‘sand battery’ goes online in Finland

#55

Post by thematrixturtle »

excitom wrote: post #43

> It has a particularly strong use case in Finland which sees long and very cold winters, and was recently cut off from Russian gas supplies over a payments dispute. Well I guess that's one way to characterize war-related sanctions and their side effects.

It's factual. The gas supplies in question were not covered by sanctions, but Russia tried to unilaterally switch to being paid in roubles and were told to go batter sand (bada bum tssh).

Re: Large-scale ‘sand battery’ goes online in Finland

#56

Post by rr808 »

htk wrote: post #3

The whole thing seems so inefficient but I am not an expert. Can anyone here expand on this?

There are times in Europe during the summer when power is free, due to excess wind and sun power. Meanwhile winters are dark and cold. If you could keep the heat for 6 months that is very useful.

Re: Large-scale ‘sand battery’ goes online in Finland

#57

Post by O__________O »

jpollock wrote: post #21

Alberta has a neighborhood that stores heat in the summer for winter use: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drake_Landing_Solar_Community

Read the Wikipedia page, might be missing something, but seems like the system works in summer and winter, but don’t see anything about summer production being used in the winter.

Re: Large-scale ‘sand battery’ goes online in Finland

#58

Post by mwint »

samatman wrote: post #46
pavon wrote: post #8

As an American it completely breaks my expectations that district heating not only works can be more efficient that decentralized heating. The amount of heat lost just moving water from the water heater on one side of the house to the shower on the other is ridiculously high in houses here. The idea that you can insulate well enough to efficiently move heat across a city is amazing to me.

Volume to surface area: for every doubling of diameter you have 1/16th the losses, before factoring in insulation. 1/16th probably sounds high, but the extra halving is because flow rate increases as radius^4, not cubed as one might guess.

Naively, I would have guessed flow rate to increase as radius^2 (cross sectional area).

Guessing the reason for extra increased flow is some edge effect / turbulence mechanisms?

Re: Large-scale ‘sand battery’ goes online in Finland

#59

Post by zardo »

ethagknight wrote: post #51
com2kid wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As a German living in a city with mandatory district heating... the end result is to be that people seem pay more for heating than they would with a decentralised system. So, in America, it is very common for hot water tanks to suddenly fail, leaking water everywhere and causing massive amounts of property damage and even creating health hazards through mold. In a not-insane world, all hot water tanks would come wi…

This comment is wrong on many levels. Hot water heaters should last a lot longer, and when they fail it’s probably a faulty thermostat or short. Still, water heaters get a drain pan to catch leaks. Lastly, installing a leak detectors are trivial and common. Your condo may have been a bad install or not installed to code. America moves hot water just fine. EDIT: yes water heaters can fail. Usually due to bad install,…

Are you saying its not common for water heaters to fail and cause water damage? Maybe I'm an outlier, but several people have told me that this happened in their homes.

Re: Large-scale ‘sand battery’ goes online in Finland

#60

Post by com2kid »

pkaye wrote: post #48
com2kid wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As a German living in a city with mandatory district heating... the end result is to be that people seem pay more for heating than they would with a decentralised system. So, in America, it is very common for hot water tanks to suddenly fail, leaking water everywhere and causing massive amounts of property damage and even creating health hazards through mold. In a not-insane world, all hot water tanks would come wi…

If they changed the anode rod on the water heater periodically it might last longer. Also the reality is that HVAC and water heater might need periodic inspections.

I was thankful, and shocked, the one year of my life that my HVAC system didn't break down in some fashion.

Hot water heaters should have leak detectors on them. They often don't. The higher end models do. Product differentiation strikes again.

Last water heater I had, the anode was A-OK, I had it checked about a year prior to the water heater failing.

Thermal stress destroys stuff.

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