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Quebec Sovereignty Movement

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Re: Quebec Sovereignty Movement

#81

Post by acoard »

vasco wrote: post #44
qwedf wrote: post #15

The only reason I see this relevant to HN is because lots of tech companies have been opening Montreal offices over the past 20 years. We have 4 universities and most educated people are bilingual in spite of the officialdom. However the drumbeats of separatism are banging again [1], so might be relevant considering what happened to the Montreal economy the last times these idiots were allowed to lead by their inferi…

You seem like you think about these issues and are not pro nationalism ideals but you type this: > proud Canadian-Italian Why are you proud of your nationalities? Seems weird in the face of the rest of your comment.

While I'm not OP, I can earnestly say I'm proud to be Canadian. We are a liberal multicultural democracy, with beautiful natural vistas and nice people and I am proud of that fact. I'm proud of the imagined Canadian identity of polite and hard-working. Are there thing I don't like? Sure, but I think having full-throated pride for "Canadian values" is not a bad thing. And I also think by doing so, I can try and reclaim this from being political/partisan. Especially after the Canadian flag has been used so heavily in political protests, I think it's all the more important to re-affirm that being proudly Canadian is not a partisan decision.

Re: Quebec Sovereignty Movement

#82

Post by rayiner »

slindz wrote: post #75
rayiner wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Speaking a foreign language in a country isn’t a human right. Language is one of the things that defines a country!

English is not a foreign language in Canada. The rest of Canada goes to great lengths to provide bilingual support. It's awful to see English being systematically demonized in Canada.

Quebec was part of France for more than 200 years before it was forcibly incorporated into British North America. Most French Canadians today are descendants of 800 French women who settled in Quebec from 1663-1673: https://www.cbc.ca/2017/canadathestoryofus/most-french-canad...

Yes, it’s part of Canada now. But maintaining its independent French identity was a fundamental part of the bargain of that union.

Re: Quebec Sovereignty Movement

#83

Post by honkdaddy »

hervature wrote: post #20
peppermint_tea wrote: post #2

Being a Québecois, I am divided on this issue. To heavily summarize : Pro : - Only one level of corruption instead of two to keep in check. - A (sometime too zealous) protection of the language. Against : - Less international political weight - Companies forced to to business in french by law might gtfo since it incur costs - Weak military power (would we stay in NATO?) Globally : Our roads are already crap. Healthca…

As someone who grew up on the Ontario-Quebec border in Northern Ontario, to highlight why this is absurd you just need to realize that roads and healthcare are a provincial thing. Quebec is already responsible for funding those things. Furthermore, Quebec receives equalization payments from the rest of Canada because they run such a deficit. If they cut themselves off, things would only get worse. The two levels of c…

To your last point, are most American shows aired in Quebec translated into Quebecois French? I’m from Ontario and had no idea, I always assumed they watched the France version. That’s very fascinating!

Re: Quebec Sovereignty Movement

#84

Post by rayiner »

qwedf wrote: post #76
rayiner wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’re grafting an Americanism onto Canadian politics and it doesn’t fit. White folks in Georgia may discriminate against Black folks in Georgia even though the two groups share a culture and language. That’s racism. A distinct cultural group seeking to avoid cultural or linguistic change created by an influx of outsiders isn’t “racism.” It’s a human right for distinct ethnocultural groups to seek political autonomy…

In no case am I grafting Americanism onto Canadian politics. I'm using an analogy to illustrate to non-Canadians how outsiders (nationalist extremists from the ROQ) are able to impose their values and views on the multicultural, multilingual city of Montreal and it has systematically strangled the city since 1976. Or do you have another explanation for the population , capital, and cultural flight that occurred over…

Reducing all conflicts between different cultural groups to “racism” is an Americanism. “Racism” is a specific concept that explains why, for example, British Americans in Georgia might feel more affinity for German Americans in Indiana than more culturally similar Black Americans in Georgia.

That’s not what’s happening in Quebec. It’s not like rural Quebecois are welcoming of Anglo Canadians either. They simply oppose multiculturalism, just like China or Japan or France itself.

Re: Quebec Sovereignty Movement

#85

Post by phoobahr »

jpambrun wrote: post #80
qwedf wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Last I checked, Montreal is in Canada and Canada has two official languages. It's my right

Quoted post unavailable.

Nope - this is a real issue inside our domestic borders. The country has two official languages but only one region that legislates one of them as second class.

Additionally - Quebec's insistence on "protecting their distinct and unique culture" tramples all over the rights of other demographics important to the formation of the country. Ex: Montreal sits on unneeded Mohawk land and the insistence on French (very Quebecois French, see numerous stories of relocating citizens of France not passing the competency requirements) but you can't get served in any Iroquoian language and in much of the north many citizens speak dialects of Cree as a first language.

So you have Indigenous people who were trampled, those who signed treaties that were then broken and/or ignored, the Metis who at least got a slightly better deal having negotiated later and spent a lot of blood, and then the Quebecois who were (basically) on the loosing side of a war & abandoned by the mother country in favour of sugar plantations in the Caribbean.

And of course they get the best deal with untenable consequences and have to be entertained every time there's a complaint that can't possibly be backed up. Whether a referendum ever actually passes the province simply can't afford to separate so, uhh, yeah. Sweetheart deals (when compared to everyone else) because, simply put, racism.

So keep some of the context in mind when Canadians complain that the province will outlaw "bonjour-hi" but you can still be served in English at nearly every fast-food joint in Montreal but might very well not get admitted to a hospital because your French isn't proficient enough.

Re: Quebec Sovereignty Movement

#86

Post by IIAOPSW »

swottler wrote: post #6
IIAOPSW wrote: post #4

Even more interesting, if it went through the Western half of Canada would effectively be cut off from the bulk of the countries population and economic centers. For this reason, the Governor of Alberta at the time had planned to cede to the US had the referendum been a success. At that point there probably would have been something of a domino effect, with the other Western provinces doing the same.

Could you clarify? Wouldn't this only cut Newfoundland and Labrador off from the rest of Canada? Can't see how this would affect Western Canada's access to the population/economic centre which is basically just Ontario, and to a lesser degree BC and Alberta itself. (Excepting Quebec, which I guess all of Canada would be cut off from to the same degree in this scenario).

Well this is awkward, I'm having difficulty finding the source where I first learned of it. But I have found this nice booklet that collected a fair number of interesting first hand documents.

https://books.google.com.au/books?id=hWy-t0lnzSMC&lpg=PA35&o...

I'm certainly misremembering details, and can't afford to spend any more time on it now, but I distinctly recall some high level official (premier, governor, chairman, whatever) revealed in an interview many years after the fact they had seriously planed on cessation had the yes side won.

Re: Quebec Sovereignty Movement

#87

Post by bregma »

jpambrun wrote: post #51
bregma wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not about power. It's about purity. The hardcore members of the independence movement bandies about what translates as "the pure wool". Today, their arguments are referred to elsewhere as "the great replacement theory".

If those hardcore exist, they represent a very small minority.

A small minority that would have won independence if it weren't for the money and the ethnic vote [0]. Nevertheless they've been able to circle the wagons [1].

[0] https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Jacques_Parizeau [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Act_respecting_the_laicity_of_...

Re: Quebec Sovereignty Movement

#88

Post by rayiner »

qwedf wrote: post #56
vasco wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You seem like you think about these issues and are not pro nationalism ideals but you type this: > proud Canadian-Italian Why are you proud of your nationalities? Seems weird in the face of the rest of your comment.

To be clear I'm upset about these policies because they stamped out the ideals of Montreal and have strangled the city, turning it from a truly global capital to a provincial backwater that's now more renowned as a great place for Americans to get in some underage drinking. My National ideals, and those of the majority from Montreal, are multilingualism and multiculturalism. Runs against the ideals of the ROQ (Rest O…

> My National ideals, and those of the majority from Montreal, are multilingualism and multiculturalism.

Those are Anglo-influenced globalist ideals. The Francophone world is decidedly not multicultural. It’s proud of French history and culture and dedicated to protecting it.

London or Toronto are like the Android ecosystem. An eclectic if often inelegant free for all. Paris and Montreal are like iOS: carefully curated and strongly opinionated.

Re: Quebec Sovereignty Movement

#89

Post by [deleted] »

vasco wrote: post #66
cwillu wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Part of proud multiculturalism is being proud of the piece you contribute to it.

Yeah, I just struggle with the pride part personally, I would say I'm proud of my achievements but not my culture. Parent clarified though.

[deleted]

Re: Quebec Sovereignty Movement

#90

Post by hervature »

honkdaddy wrote: post #83
hervature wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone who grew up on the Ontario-Quebec border in Northern Ontario, to highlight why this is absurd you just need to realize that roads and healthcare are a provincial thing. Quebec is already responsible for funding those things. Furthermore, Quebec receives equalization payments from the rest of Canada because they run such a deficit. If they cut themselves off, things would only get worse. The two levels of c…

To your last point, are most American shows aired in Quebec translated into Quebecois French? I’m from Ontario and had no idea, I always assumed they watched the France version. That’s very fascinating!

Actually, media is probably the only thing that wouldn't change because there are explicit English and French channels and the French channels probably pay for the translations themselves. I meant for all the signage of products like nutrition labels and product descriptions. It would be like saying "aluminum foil" instead of "aluminium foil" which is literally nothing. Except, these people separated for the explicit reason to product "aluminium foil". Right now, companies redesign their entire packaging for Canada as a whole to include both official languages (as it is a requirement) and the marginal price of doing the Canadian French translation is minuscule. If Quebec separated, I think they would either receive the Canadian version or the French (from France) version. In either case, the only thing they've done is removed themselves from having any influence on their language. The other possibility is I suppose companies would get around to the Quebec version (if required) after Hungary and Israel. I'm not sure separatists understand what that would mean.
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