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The Swerve

locusmag.com

191–200 of 207 posts

Re: The Swerve

#191
post #64

> Incredibly, climate denial still festers. “There’s no cliff,” they insist. “This bus is on a smooth road that goes all the way to the promised land. Only a fool would swerve now.” I think I get the main theme, but I don't think "climate cliff" is a useful analogy. It makes one picture a scene of relative calm until suddenly (and abruptly) the shit hits the fan, when the reality is going to be far more messy. (Just…

Maybe a better analogy is a bus moving into a desert rather than out of it, while some people desperately try to tell the driver everyone's gonna die of thirst while others insist there's an oasis nearby and others still believe they're heading towards a city. Some also know they're going into the desert but believe there's enough time to go back when they run out of water.

The cliff is not for Earth. Climate will change gradually, segueing smoothly. Mostly. Mass extinctions, sure, but those are normal.

The cliff is civilizational collapse, which will happen very fast once a threshold is crossed. Which threshold it will be is uncertain. Ocean ecosystem collapse and mass starvation? Refugees from uninhabitable places exceed 200M, bringing fascists to power, hence war?

Civilizational collapse has happened many, many times. Just not worldwide, before. We have seen how it goes: the rich try to cushion it for themselves, hastening the crash.

Re: The Swerve

#192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Science does not work by popular vote.

I was adding context to OP's statement that "No serious climate scientist thinks we are going to fall off a cliff". If 60% of the most influential climate scientists expect the world to warm >= 3°C, and one believes (like I do) that >=3°C of warming constitutes a "cliff", then OP's statement is incorrect.

No, my point isn't about 3 degrees of warming - I agree that's possible. My point is that 3 degrees of warming will not cause civilization to end, still less human life.

Re: The Swerve

#193
post #84
post #57

Respectfully suggest this is nonsense. No serious climate scientist thinks we are going to fall off a cliff. There will be huge costs, yes. Civilization won't end, no. What people fail to grasp is that costs can be absolutely enormous but look like a blip compared to the effect of GDP growth in the long run. World War II is an example. The millions of deaths barely show up on a graph of world population. The huge los…

> No serious climate scientist thinks we are going to fall off a cliff. It's not a literal cliff. Doctorow was using a metaphor. And they're never exact fits, they are loosely analogous. He probably chose a bus in an attempt to make the trolley problem more current and approachable.

Right. I understand that Doctorow was not literally saying that all humans will fall off a cliff, into the sea.

Re: The Swerve

#194
post #57

Respectfully suggest this is nonsense. No serious climate scientist thinks we are going to fall off a cliff. There will be huge costs, yes. Civilization won't end, no. What people fail to grasp is that costs can be absolutely enormous but look like a blip compared to the effect of GDP growth in the long run. World War II is an example. The millions of deaths barely show up on a graph of world population. The huge los…

Respectfully suggest that this analysis is more whistling in the dark . The very idea that human leadership has things under control overlooks multiple events in history - e.g. the Bronze Age Collapse we're still trying to explain - and suggests both amnesia and completely undue hubris. The idea also overlooks the potential for other kinds of simultaneous disaster being heaped on. (CME's for one.) We can anticipate t…

This seems like a general argument that "unexpected bad things might happen". I agree, sure - but this argument applies equally to, for example, alien invasions or grey goo. The question I'm addressing is whether global warming will cause civilization to collapse or humans to go extinct. I claim no serious climate scientist thinks that.

Re: The Swerve

#195
If you look at Sri Lanka right now, their society is completely falling apart not because of climate change, but because there is no oil. If you look at Saudi, they can't raise production, not because of climate change, but because there is no more oil. If you look at the war in Ukraine, the Russian ruble is the best performing currency of 2022, and the Russians are by all accounts not doing badly in the Ukraine war mainly because they have plenty of oil.

Climate change may show up and get us is a few years, or it may take longer. Running out of oil is starting now, we're already in the middle of it.

What's the deal with nobody talking about running out of oil and instead the focus on climate change? With the climate change narrative we get to the same place as the running out of oil narrative, but the only solution is to work together on alternatives. With the running out of oil narrative, the focus is on solutions, but it also becomes a war between nations for the remaining resources. We're seeing Germany revert back to coal now, for which there is more spare supply than oil.

I don't really have a solution here. Maybe we would have better ones if there were more clarity around what the actual situation is.

Re: The Swerve

#196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hyperinflation of the old currency would erase all debt denominated in it as we shift to a global deflationary economic system. Once in the deflationary environment, the cost of borrowing would be higher, and there would be less reason to work, consume and invest. Hence, there would be less incentive to take on debt. Many things are preferable to having 0 savings and a planet on fire.

Come on. At least read Keynes just for the sake of steelmanning. Once the marginal productivity of physical capital is below the real interest rate people will abandon production even if there is a shortage of products and people are starving on the street. They will do this until the marginal productivity of the capital is high enough i.e. the shortage is strong enough to raise prices to keep up with the high real i…

To avoid ecological disaster, we need to slam on the brakes, not merely pump them.

> Once the marginal productivity of physical capital is below the real interest rate people will abandon production even if there is a shortage of products and people are starving on the street.

Given the profit margin on farming is something like 10%, and assuming the average annual purchasing power appreciation of our hypothetical global currency of fixed supply equals the Fed’s inflation target of 2% plus 0.25% GDP growth, how do we arrive at people “starving on the street”?

> If you want to discourage consumption you should introduce consumption taxes for natural resources, co2 and other forms of pollution

Surely the level of taxation necessary to curb industrial and retail usage of fossil fuels to the same extent of global deflationary economics would make the taxation measures politically infeasible. The tax policy would need to result in unthinkably high prices to create the drastic changes necessary. Deflation OTOH would lead to a decline in capital investment, employment, and spending without requiring any level of forcible compulsion.

A global currency of fixed supply would realistically deliver a sufficiently powerful financial incentive to galvanize widespread, voluntary adoption of ecologically sustainable consumer behaviour and business practices.

> by maintaining full employment

Particularly with the rise of automation and AI, is maintaining full employment really an achievable goal? We desperately need a way for the majority of humans to subsist without working bullshit jobs [1].

> hence the need to force ever greater quantities of money into the economy to keep it alive

We’re facing ecological collapse precisely because humanity has chased infinite growth.

[1]: https://www.strike.coop/bullshit-jobs/

Re: The Swerve

#197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Any strategy that doesn't address that on the scale that is required can be immediately dismissed as noise. What about strategies designed to set the stage for that, but do not define it as a direct goal?

As Doctorow spent a substantial part of his essay saying: time. We had decades to act decades ago. The stage has been set. It's not set very advantageously. We need to act. With significant effect. Now.

> We need to act. With significant effect. Now.

Perhaps. But what action(s) are optimal? Are the top 5 most optimal actions contained within Doctorow's essay?

Consider his ending:

> We’ll swerve. The bus will roll. It will hurt. It will be terrible.

> But we won’t be dead on canyon floor.

> We’ll fix the bus. We’ll make it better. We’ll get it back on its wheels. We’ll get a better driver, and a better destination.

> That’s our happy ending. That’s our hopeful future.

> We gotta get ahold of that wheel first. You ready?

> Let’s roll.

I wonder: what does "Let's roll" resolve to?

Re: The Swerve

#198
An author I discovered only in the past decade, though he's been active since the 1970s, is William Ophuls.

He was amongst the first to write of the political dimension of addressing global catastrophic risks. Initially, that was largely focused on the concept of resource limits. Global warming isn't unrelated, though it's a sink limit: boundaries on the ability of the environment to absorb the consequences of human activity without making that human activity itself untenable.

What Ophuls realised, and what I'm increasingly convinced of, is that it's not the technical element, but rather the political, social, cultural, and economic (commerce, finance, trade, power) aspects which will prove the most challenging. And he seems to have been correct.

I strongly recommend all his work, though Ecology and the Politics of Scarcity (first published in 1977, revised ~1994) and Plato's Revenge (2011) are probably the best starting points.

https://www.worldcat.org/title/ecology-and-the-politics-of-s...

https://www.worldcat.org/title/ecology-and-the-politics-of-s...

https://www.worldcat.org/title/platos-revenge-politics-in-th...

Also available via Archive Org:

https://archive.org/search.php?query=william%20ophuls

Ophuls has a website with more recent writings:

https://web.archive.org/web/20190311104851/https://ophuls.or...

As he's on in years, I've looked for others who are carrying on his tradition. Canadian political scientist Thomas Homer-Dixon is referenced by Ophuls several times and seems closest:

https://homerdixon.com/

Re: The Swerve

#199
post #64

> Incredibly, climate denial still festers. “There’s no cliff,” they insist. “This bus is on a smooth road that goes all the way to the promised land. Only a fool would swerve now.” I think I get the main theme, but I don't think "climate cliff" is a useful analogy. It makes one picture a scene of relative calm until suddenly (and abruptly) the shit hits the fan, when the reality is going to be far more messy. (Just…

All metaphors melt if you push them loudly enough.

The point isn't to find the most apt metaphore.

The point is that there's a looming crisis, humanity is hurtling toward it at breakneck speed, and there's little if any time left to act.

I've had discussions myself with friends and family over this. One response has been that "the people who need to know about this know what the problem is and how to respond". That particular response came before a novel coronavirus emerged in a land far away and spread across the globe in days and weeks.

Pandemics are an emergency we've seen before, that we have contingencies and plans for, whose dynamics we understand, etc., etc., etc. And yet the world, as a whole failed miserably, through the mechanism of individual countries, regions (state, provinces, counties, etc.) and cities failing to act effectively.

With a very few exceptions. Taiwan, New Zealand, Australia, South Korea, Japan, and somewhat improbably the poorer south-east Asian countries of Vietnam, Cambodia, Thailand, and Laos, seem to have responded highly effectively, at least initially. As has mainland China, for the most part.

But as a dress-rehersal for a far more challenging crisis, I'm both underwhelmed and terrified of what else lies in store.

Re: The Swerve

#200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As Doctorow spent a substantial part of his essay saying: time. We had decades to act decades ago. The stage has been set. It's not set very advantageously. We need to act. With significant effect. Now.

> We need to act. With significant effect. Now. Perhaps. But what action(s) are optimal? Are the top 5 most optimal actions contained within Doctorow's essay? Consider his ending: > We’ll swerve. The bus will roll. It will hurt. It will be terrible. > But we won’t be dead on canyon floor. > We’ll fix the bus. We’ll make it better. We’ll get it back on its wheels. We’ll get a better driver, and a better destination. >…

"Let's roll" is an allusion to a self-sacrifice made on the moring of 11 September 2001, in which a group of unorganised civilians aboard United Airlines flight 93 stormed the cockpit within which armed hijackers were piloting the aircraft toward Washington, DC, having already killed the flight crew and several passengers. The group stormed the cockpit and overwhelmed the hijackers, crashing the aircraft into the ground in rural Pennsylvania. All 44 on board were killed, either in the crash or earlier by the hijackers. "Let's roll" were the last words uttered by passenger Todd Beamer via phone before the passengers swerved the bus, in this case, an aircraft.[1]

The plane's likely target, the US Capitol or the White House, were saved.

What "let's roll" resolves to is principled sacrifice for the greater goood.

There is no Pareto-optimal solution. That is, there is no action which causes no harm, or benefits all.

There are less pessimal solutions. There are courses of action which minimise net harm, or perhaps more significantly and apporpriately, maximise long-term survival, resilience, and net quality of life for many future generations.

We're having this discussion in the immediate context of a global pandemic whose reported deaths exceed six million souls with estimates of actual deaths from 15--26 million[2], in which both individuals and political leaders at city, state, and national levels refused to take or implement basic measures such as social distancing, masking mandates, and vaccine requirements, on the basis of claimed rights to attend spring break parties, "personal freedoms", pecuniary concerns (most of which appear to have been far more severely impacted by measures taken in their name), and similar short-sighted, selfish, and straight-up counterfactual bases.

Cory, I, and numerous others aren't saying there's a fairytale ending to this. There are simply less horrific variants of hell.

I've been reading Kim Staley Robinson's fiction book Ministry for the Future. Among the criticisms I've seen of it is Francis Fukuyama's, who finds the book unrealistic in that KSR seems to assume that everything goes right. Mind that "going right" includes mass terrorist response that destroys tens of thousands of commercial jetliners in flight and heatwaves killing tens of millions across South Asia.

Fukuyama is right in one regard, though. KSR is showing us what a best case (or close to it) scenario might look like. It is an optimistic book.

And it's still got some pretty awful parts.

The line we'll likely track will be far south of Robinson's plot. But the line we follow doing nothing is far further south still.

Or to quote another climate realist: Life is pain, Highness. Anyone who tells you otherwise is selling something.

________________________________

Notes:

1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Airlines_Flight_93

2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COVID-19_pandemic https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/coronavirus-excess-...

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