Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Quebec Sovereignty Movement

en.wikipedia.org

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

61–70 of 106 posts

Re: Quebec Sovereignty Movement

#61

Post by ekidd »

johnasmith wrote: post #3

I'm Québécois from birth (Trois Rivières). I voted in the incredibly close '95 seperation referendum. In my view, separation or sovereignty would be bad for us. Separation is mainly predicated on the idea that Québécois are culturally distinct from the rest of Canada, and that our values would be better represented independently. We mostly speak French, and the rest of Canada is predominantly anglo (my New Brunswick…

> Breaking from Canada to underline these minor differences would come at a tremendous cost.

Unfortunately, I suspect that the renewed separatist movement is making a lot of people rethink potential futures in Quebec.

For example, my wife and I would easily meet the requirements to immigrate to Quebec. We have francophone family in Montreal, we speak French (one of us natively), and we have valuable professional skills. We would have no objections to sending our kids to francophone schools. And Montreal is one of my favorite cities on the planet, despite the horrible traffic and interminable road construction.

But looking at law 66, there's a certain cruelty to the details. As I understand it, new arrivals will be forbidden from receiving any government services in a language other than French after 6 months. Montreal's respected English-speaking universities will apparently be placed under strict language rules, with the obvious intention of weakening them. And there's talk, once again, about separation from Canada.

An independent Québec without Canadian human rights guarantees, and with ever more desperate extensions to law 66, would likely weaken the robust international economy of Montreal. I suspect that even some bilingual professionals would start thinking about moving to Toronto?

Re: Quebec Sovereignty Movement

#62

Post by magic-chicken »

goosedragons wrote: post #60
magic-chicken wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point is that the crucifix was removed from the most symbolic place it could be removed from. If thats not a strong, consistent signal that Quebec wants religions out of the public institutions, then what is?

Removing the rest of them? Changing the names of all the places named after Catholic Saints? Not having the municipality put up Christmas decorations every year? You know, actually taking action to do that? They only took down the cross in the National Assembly after backlash and calls of hypocrisy. Originally Legault wanted it to stay up. That alone says to me how BS the whole thing is.

The process to remove religions from public institutions started 50-70 years ago. It's a process, and its going to take a long time, as there is 400 years of history to deal with. Saying that the whole process is BS because there was some hesitation, or because there are still streets named after catholic Saints is just a logical fallacy.

Re: Quebec Sovereignty Movement

#63

Post by incomingpain »

jpambrun wrote: post #55
incomingpain wrote: post #40

Quebec is represented by the CAQ at provincial level who are nationalist/separatist. Bloc at federal level who are also separatists. Quebec quite clearly wants to separate. Technically speaking if we were to have a nationwide referendum on 'should canada kick quebec to the curb' it would be overwhelmingly in favour of throwing quebec out. So what's going on? If you go back 75 years. Quebec due to the language barrier…

Your premise is false. CAQ is not separatist and bloc has barely any representative. Seperation is at a all time low. The level of transfer payment is closer to 10b than 75b.. What sort of BS do you believe in the ROC??

>CAQ is not separatist and bloc has barely any representative. Seperation is at a all time low.

I do understand legault has said he's not separatist. Actions > words. Quebec Liberals have been quite vocal that the CAQ are separatists. As an objective ontario person I say the CAQ are separatist. Let's not even bring up Trudeau and western alienation.

In terms of Bloc representation. They have what 50% of the seats in Quebec. Sure sounds like representation to me. Though yes I do agree separatism is quite low, but that seems to have far more to do with the reality that Quebec becomes poor.

>The level of transfer payment is closer to 10b than 75b..

If you're looking solely at 'equalization payments' it's around $13 billion. That's not the only money going to Quebec.

Canada Health Transfer is another $10B to Quebec.

Canada social transfer is another $3B to quebec.

There's $26 billion in straight up $ transfers.

Now you also have to look at other federal expenditures. Quebec pays X$/year in taxes but the fed pays for lots of things within Quebec. CBSA, Military, etc. The lowest it has ever been is about $20billion in net difference. That is to say, Canadians paying Quebec $20 billion on top of that $26 billion.

Canadians have been giving Quebec a ton of money for decades and it's also getting worse. Though the table that I use hasn't been updated because of covid. So I don't know what this years' data looks like.

Fundamentally Quebec is basically incapable of separating.

Re: Quebec Sovereignty Movement

#64

Post by goosedragons »

magic-chicken wrote: post #62
goosedragons wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Removing the rest of them? Changing the names of all the places named after Catholic Saints? Not having the municipality put up Christmas decorations every year? You know, actually taking action to do that? They only took down the cross in the National Assembly after backlash and calls of hypocrisy. Originally Legault wanted it to stay up. That alone says to me how BS the whole thing is.

The process to remove religions from public institutions started 50-70 years ago. It's a process, and its going to take a long time, as there is 400 years of history to deal with. Saying that the whole process is BS because there was some hesitation, or because there are still streets named after catholic Saints is just a logical fallacy.

The fact that the person hesitating is the Premier of the government that introduced and passed the legislation doesn't send a good message.

Re: Quebec Sovereignty Movement

#65

Post by vasco »

qwedf wrote: post #56
vasco wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You seem like you think about these issues and are not pro nationalism ideals but you type this: > proud Canadian-Italian Why are you proud of your nationalities? Seems weird in the face of the rest of your comment.

To be clear I'm upset about these policies because they stamped out the ideals of Montreal and have strangled the city, turning it from a truly global capital to a provincial backwater that's now more renowned as a great place for Americans to get in some underage drinking. My National ideals, and those of the majority from Montreal, are multilingualism and multiculturalism. Runs against the ideals of the ROQ (Rest O…

Thanks for answering! It seemed like a contradiction but I understand your point of view.

Re: Quebec Sovereignty Movement

#66

Post by vasco »

cwillu wrote: post #59
vasco wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You seem like you think about these issues and are not pro nationalism ideals but you type this: > proud Canadian-Italian Why are you proud of your nationalities? Seems weird in the face of the rest of your comment.

Part of proud multiculturalism is being proud of the piece you contribute to it.

Yeah, I just struggle with the pride part personally, I would say I'm proud of my achievements but not my culture. Parent clarified though.

Re: Quebec Sovereignty Movement

#67

Post by jpambrun »

incomingpain wrote: post #63
jpambrun wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your premise is false. CAQ is not separatist and bloc has barely any representative. Seperation is at a all time low. The level of transfer payment is closer to 10b than 75b.. What sort of BS do you believe in the ROC??

>CAQ is not separatist and bloc has barely any representative. Seperation is at a all time low. I do understand legault has said he's not separatist. Actions > words. Quebec Liberals have been quite vocal that the CAQ are separatists. As an objective ontario person I say the CAQ are separatist. Let's not even bring up Trudeau and western alienation. In terms of Bloc representation. They have what 50% of the seats in…

I am not sure we should care how a political party defines another.. CAQ are definitely against pushing sovereignty. Bloc did better than I remembered, good for them.

Outside of equalization, that federal money comes from our taxes. Besides, if Quebec is so much poorer that the ROC it is because of inequalities that is the impetus for seperatist to begin with.

You sound like the beating husband that rejoice because the beaten wife can't afford to leave.

Re: Quebec Sovereignty Movement

#68

Post by myth_drannon »

angry_octet wrote: post #33
qwedf wrote: post #15

The only reason I see this relevant to HN is because lots of tech companies have been opening Montreal offices over the past 20 years. We have 4 universities and most educated people are bilingual in spite of the officialdom. However the drumbeats of separatism are banging again [1], so might be relevant considering what happened to the Montreal economy the last times these idiots were allowed to lead by their inferi…

It's really depressing how little the wider Quebec population understands about the very serious economic consequences of separation. They don't understand that Montreal, and all it's immigrant workers, is paying for their doctors and retirement plans, the reason they can afford a big house, a boat and holidays in Cuba. Making cheap electricity and aluminium isn't enough. There's a strong undercurrent of anti-Islamic…

Look at Brexit. It's not about understanding the consequences but caring. And the populace just don't care. When you talk about nationalism, separatism and such, it's about emotions. Racism, antisimitism, the Others, that is the fuel of CAQ/PQ.

Re: Quebec Sovereignty Movement

#69

Post by incomingpain »

ekidd wrote: post #61
johnasmith wrote: post #3

I'm Québécois from birth (Trois Rivières). I voted in the incredibly close '95 seperation referendum. In my view, separation or sovereignty would be bad for us. Separation is mainly predicated on the idea that Québécois are culturally distinct from the rest of Canada, and that our values would be better represented independently. We mostly speak French, and the rest of Canada is predominantly anglo (my New Brunswick…

> Breaking from Canada to underline these minor differences would come at a tremendous cost. Unfortunately, I suspect that the renewed separatist movement is making a lot of people rethink potential futures in Quebec. For example, my wife and I would easily meet the requirements to immigrate to Quebec. We have francophone family in Montreal, we speak French (one of us natively), and we have valuable professional skil…

>Unfortunately, I suspect that the renewed separatist movement is making a lot of people rethink potential futures in Quebec.

How about those Curfews and other insane covid responses?

>But looking at law 66, there's a certain cruelty to the details. As I understand it, new arrivals will be forbidden from receiving any government services in a language other than French after 6 months. Montreal's respected English-speaking universities will apparently be placed under strict language rules, with the obvious intention of weakening them. And there's talk, once again, about separation from Canada.

So lets say I go to Northsec in Montreal, awesome experience. Since I cannot prove I went to an english school. I would only be served in french if I ended up in hospital. Parles pas francais.

So what? I just die in the hospital? I've been to a quebec hospital before. I waited 16 hours in the waiting room because I didnt speak french.

Obviously I'm not going to Montreal anymore. Northsec is awesome but guess not anymore.

>An independent Québec without Canadian human rights guarantees, and with ever more desperate extensions to law 66, would likely weaken the robust international economy of Montreal. I suspect that even some bilingual professionals would start thinking about moving to Toronto?

What you are seeing as a negative the quebec separatists see as a positive.

Re: Quebec Sovereignty Movement

#70

Post by rayiner »

goosedragons wrote: post #60
magic-chicken wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point is that the crucifix was removed from the most symbolic place it could be removed from. If thats not a strong, consistent signal that Quebec wants religions out of the public institutions, then what is?

Removing the rest of them? Changing the names of all the places named after Catholic Saints? Not having the municipality put up Christmas decorations every year? You know, actually taking action to do that? They only took down the cross in the National Assembly after backlash and calls of hypocrisy. Originally Legault wanted it to stay up. That alone says to me how BS the whole thing is.

> Changing the names of all the places named after Catholic Saints? Not having the municipality put up Christmas decorations every year?

But that stuff really is "history and culture" rather than "public endorsement of religion."

People in my home country would never tolerate foreign Christians coming in and demanding that the state stop celebrating Eid or changing place names. People are entitled to their heritage, and shouldn’t have to erase it to accommodate newcomers.

Post reply on HN