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I don't care how you web dev; I just need more better web apps

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Re: I don't care how you web dev; I just need more better web apps

#181

Post by ratww »

wizofaus wrote: post #174
ratww wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The migration is often also a source of problems in itself. There's nothing wrong with neither Vue or React, but adding a second one of those for no reason deserves the flogging thing that the grandparent poster is talking about. Build systems... well they're a dime a dozen and in Javascript all build tools kinda suck (yes, including Vite), but still no excuse for having two.

Curious why you suggest all JS build tools suck... previous company I was at had .NET, Java (backend), golang, iOS, Android and JS (react) builds, that all compiled, ran unit tests, packaged and deployed to relevant targets. The react build was the least problematic by far (though we did get bitten on upgrading the host OS which upgraded node to a version incompatible certain older packages being used, but it didn't…

"Suck" doesn't mean "worse compared to others". It means it has problems by itself that I would prefer not having to deal with. Ideally we'd need no build tools for JS. Except for JSX, modern browsers are mature enough. Other languages build tools are often terrible too, the only one I actually enjoy is probably Cargo.

As for the real answer: for trivial stuff, all build tools work fine. For anything beyond that they still have varying degrees of problems. You seem to have encountered those in iOS but not in the JS tool you used. An engineer working on a super vanilla iOS project but a complex JS project would probably say the opposite.

Vite works quite well for most part, but there's still quite a lot that can go wrong with it. It depends on two other build tools (esbuild and Rollup), so some otherwise trivial configurations are difficult and prone to break with upgrades. But for happy-path stuff it works perfectly.

Most of the time a vanilla configuration is fine, but sometimes you have special requirements (sometimes due to vendors or specific technologies) that the younger tools aren't good for, while older tools have their own issues.

Re: I don't care how you web dev; I just need more better web apps

#182

Post by Hammershaft »

pketh wrote: post #65
Hammershaft wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The ghost logo anchored to the top left jitters when flicking/scrolling using a mobile phone. Otherwise it's an awesome site, the wii shop remix still puts a grin on my face

The header and footer, including the logo hide on mobile during scroll because mobile safari doesn’t send enough info to position them accurately during flicks. Are you seeing flickering on iOS or android?

Android using firefox, so I may be a serious outlier.

Re: I don't care how you web dev; I just need more better web apps

#183

Post by acomjean »

aaaaaaaaaaab wrote: post #99
pketh wrote: post #13

relevant but also self-promo: I build https://kinopio.club a spatial thinking tool that's also (I hope) a good website. I'm only one person without the resources to build separate ios/android apps so the website needs to work everywhere and be fast and responsive

The banner at the top is constantly appearing/disappearing. It’s super annoying, and this is just one of the issues… Sorry, but in its current state your website is a good example of why webapps are inferior to native ones.

Some ui issues aside one can see the great potential of web apps with their ability to be shared and used without installing. I love native apps but for solo developers this is the best alternative.

Re: I don't care how you web dev; I just need more better web apps

#184

Post by strken »

hdjjhhvvhga wrote: post #180
strken wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the argument is different. Let's say you use a basic HTML Golang app backed by SQLite and replicated to a secondary with Litestream, all running on cheap bare metal ARM servers, and therefore your website is simple, usable, never goes down, and costs $20/month to run. I have no idea if this is actually good, but let's agree that there's some idealised system out there that would be a lot better than what we h…

> because they have nothing better to point to. Well - they do. For example, HN is running on a simple bare metal machine, with another one waiting for emergency.

Yep! Good example.

Re: I don't care how you web dev; I just need more better web apps

#185

Post by [deleted] »

sidlls wrote: post #45
omarhaneef wrote: post #28

The author complains that developers argue about their tools and methods, insist on their favorite techniques, but produce (more) worse apps. Particularly for the amount of time and effort expended on developing the apps. The thing is: the debates aren’t naive. They’re exactly trying to workout the details. When someone says, hey forget postgresql and just use SQLite, and someone else says good luck if you hit n rows…

The problem of which DB to use is one that can be figured out ahead of time with even modest attention to more rigorous engineering practice. But that’s not what webdevs the subject of this article do. They play guess-and-check games like they are 15th century engineers building a bridge, because they have hacker mentalities instead of engineer mentalities. Not to mention the cult of celebrity and fad following in th…

[deleted]

Re: I don't care how you web dev; I just need more better web apps

#187

Post by pclmulqdq »

Fire-Dragon-DoL wrote: post #77
croes wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree. Web devs aren't discussing characters and plots but instead argue which typewriter to use. Better tools don't make better apps just like word processors don't make better books. The best web dev tools are worthless if the UX is bad.

What makes you say that better tools don't make better apps? A screwdriver changes removing a screw task from "extremely hard" to "extremely easy". Same way, a web framework makes writing a secure web server substantially easier than starting from scratch.

In the history of construction, better tools have not improved quality of output. People in the ancient era made amazingly fine furniture. The finest furniture made today still uses techniques similar to the ones used 300 years ago.

Similarly, I doubt that better web development tools improve the quality of apps. It likely just makes them cheaper.

Re: I don't care how you web dev; I just need more better web apps

#188

Post by simonh »

strken wrote: post #167
omarhaneef wrote: post #28

The author complains that developers argue about their tools and methods, insist on their favorite techniques, but produce (more) worse apps. Particularly for the amount of time and effort expended on developing the apps. The thing is: the debates aren’t naive. They’re exactly trying to workout the details. When someone says, hey forget postgresql and just use SQLite, and someone else says good luck if you hit n rows…

I think the argument is different. Let's say you use a basic HTML Golang app backed by SQLite and replicated to a secondary with Litestream, all running on cheap bare metal ARM servers, and therefore your website is simple, usable, never goes down, and costs $20/month to run. I have no idea if this is actually good, but let's agree that there's some idealised system out there that would be a lot better than what we h…

>Discussing the technologies or patterns involved without building anything and especially without building a complete working product with your favourite elegant tool....

But surely, if anywhere, this is the place to talk to people who have built complete working system, are building them, and intend to build more of them. This isn't a forum for a bunch of undergrads chatting about stuff they just learned in college. I'm sure there are some of those here, but if you're going to find seasoned web engineers anywhere, this is a good place to start.

> Let's say you use a basic HTML Golang app backed by SQLite... therefore your website is simple, usable, never goes down.

That's a complete non-sequitur. If the app becomes hugely popular, needs to serve massive volumes of data and sync across thousands of instances, well, it won't. You can't say that because it uses simple tech therefore it will be wonderful, that's not how that works. There are use cases where the MongoDB + Kafka thing will work much better. That's what these discussions are about.

Re: I don't care how you web dev; I just need more better web apps

#189

Post by divan »

kitsune_ wrote: post #150
divan wrote: post #107

Web dev community should just acknowledge the simple fact that typesetting engine from 80s (HTML) and legacy hacks built around it (css and js) is not a good foundation for making modern apps. It's like trying to build apps with a spreadsheet cells (it's actually possible, but we don't do it, thankfully) by throwing a lot of abstractions and frameworks on top of it that would hide the ugliness of the foundation layer…

I'm not entirely disagreeing with you, but there are many great web apps, or not? Google Maps, Docs, Sheets and Slides - they all kind of work without being super horrible? It's not like most desktop apps are these great beacons of perfection either, most desktop apps are just as bad as most web apps. Just think of all the ridiculous enterprise applications that people had work with in the past. And the same applies…

Good points. But I'm not saying that all web apps are horrible. My point is it takes enourmously more effort, time and money to make web app that doesn't suck (compared to non-web alternatives). Google can afford this, for sure.

Likewise the desktop apps – there are quite a lot of horrible apps, for sure, but competition usually drives the quality up (I mean competition for the better frameworks and/or languages). Nobody uses Tcl/Tk anymore. Naturally in monopilized markets, enterprise software faces no competition and usually sucks.

Re: I don't care how you web dev; I just need more better web apps

#190

Post by divan »

jasfi wrote: post #149
divan wrote: post #107

Web dev community should just acknowledge the simple fact that typesetting engine from 80s (HTML) and legacy hacks built around it (css and js) is not a good foundation for making modern apps. It's like trying to build apps with a spreadsheet cells (it's actually possible, but we don't do it, thankfully) by throwing a lot of abstractions and frameworks on top of it that would hide the ugliness of the foundation layer…

Flutter provides another option. The only issue is an initial load time on the web, but with a fiber connection it's not too long to download.

Sure, Flutter is a great example, how "web app" is just the same app with a crappy foundation layer. Actually the first time you run side-by-side Flutter app as 1) native desktop, 2) iOS (in Simulator), 3) Android (in emulator) and 4) Web (in a browser) , it bends a mind a little bit. All 4 apps looks and feel the same, and only window frame tells the difference.
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