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I don't care how you web dev; I just need more better web apps

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Re: I don't care how you web dev; I just need more better web apps

#151

Post by ratww »

shreyshnaccount wrote: post #79
chefandy wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Really? I think the most productive thing the industry could do is get rid of developers who drastically overvalue their own work, methods, and ideas, haughtily dismiss the value of others’ contributions out of hand, and blame everyone else for a project’s shortcomings. You can usually ID them by their persistently rolled eyes, big fish in small pond mentality, and 1.9 septillion reputation on Stack Overflow.

you're both wrong. the most productive thing would be to grow up and help bring the better out in each other. create an environment thats about the skill. set aside ego and focus on building something wonderful. but doesn't seem that's gonna happen soon. (i dont really like bigtech, but the "blameless" culture seems like it could be very productive and save many a dramatic exits)

I wouldn't be so fast to dismiss the previous answers, although I think they're a bit snarky. There is indeed a larger number of developers that is necessary on lots of projects from influential companies lately, and this heavily affects the architecture and the outcome of those projects.

The goal isn't to "build X" anymore, it's to "build X but with N engineers", with N being multiple times the minimum amount needed. This affects how tools are built. They're built "to scale", and this trickles down to smaller companies too. This also affects how software ends up looking, meaning custom GUIs and widgets all the way, even when it's not necessary.

After working in a couple Unicorns where the investors asked for larger headcount, and a short stint in a FAANG, that's my experience.

Re: I don't care how you web dev; I just need more better web apps

#152

Post by kitsune_ »

rat9988 wrote: post #130
berkes wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. They aren't. Frameworks are the scaffolding, the skeleton. They dictate the shape. It's literally in the name. > : a skeletal, openwork, or structural frame Tools are the things you use to build within that skeleton. More pragmatic: Rails is a framework that dictates an MVC shape, with an RDS, that produces server side rendered HTML or data in a RESTfull manner. The tools you use for Rails development are your ID…

They are still tools though.

Maybe the word 'tool' is just not adequate and there is no 1 to 1 equivalence here. If you come from woodworking, the saw or drill doesn't end up being part of the table you build whereas the framework code is part of the actual product you build. Or in other words, if you remove the framework after you programmed your solution the solution stops working where as if you remove the drill and put it back into your bag the table still stands. I would argue there is a categorical difference at play here.

So maybe words like tool, scaffolding (and even framework) are just not entirely up to the job of describing what a 'software framework' is and ultimately lead to confusion.

Re: I don't care how you web dev; I just need more better web apps

#153

Post by dusted »

pzo wrote: post #140
dusted wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're making another important point.. Native have had fairly good tools for making GUIs, since like.. what.. 1991 ? Simple nice tools where you define your windows and drag the widgets onto them where you want them to be.. then hook up code to it... Web.. it's still stuck in the 80's in all the worst ways.. using a f*cking typewriter to define your UI.

Life got more complicated since introduction of smartphones and tablets - it's probably order of magnitude harder to do decent mobile app than desktop one: 1) you have smaller screen estate and have to split some forms into multiple page wizards ( on desktop if you lack space you just popup yet another window wherever it popups) 2) you have to support different screen orientations (portrait, landscape) 3) you have to…

Yes, this puts me solidly in the niche, I couldn't care less about mobile or tablet.. They're fine devices for.. I don't know really, making calls and scrolling facebook.. But for anything with writing involved, or.. input in general.. for any period of time.. I'll never be that hip, and I get that I'm "in the wrong", but that does not change my opinion that what the world needs is more stationary workstations with large desks, multiple large screens and good keyboards and mice.

I know it's not how the world works, but I wish, if we could just show "them" how good the programs can be, how efficient the user interfaces can be, how awesome it is to use a real proper computer with real proper computer programs, instead of the toys on tablets... But I know I'm in the wrong.. I know it's "just me" and everyone else enjoys their glass plates. grumpy old man shows himself out

Re: I don't care how you web dev; I just need more better web apps

#154

Post by ratww »

noahtallen wrote: post #68
layer8 wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Until or unless something equivalent to those platform frameworks becomes part of the browser, the situation won’t change significantly. The fact is that the current interface between web app and browser, that is, HTML, CSS, and JavaScript (and WASM), is highly inadequate for productivity applications.

I think “highly inadequate” is a big exaggeration. As an example, many people are fairly productive on slack. (Arguably more productive than email.) Native slack is nearly equivalent to web. Another example is google sheets or google docs. I do agree native had some big benefits. Probably the biggest hindrance to web is that you’re basically downloading the binary from the server and then executing it in line. That l…

That's 100% fair, but I don't think that's really the argument of GP. The argument is that the interface is inadequate, not that the result itself is.

With enough force you can definitely fit a square object in a round hole. Not saying I totally agree. IMO it heavily depends. I've seen my share of native monstrosities (seen lots of XAML/WPF apps with zero accessibility and very slow, although WPF is lovely from a dev perspective), and "productivity" covers a lot of ground.

Re: I don't care how you web dev; I just need more better web apps

#155

Post by zo1 »

iratewizard wrote: post #53
jdougan wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the dev pool of 2022 was like the dev pool of (for example) 1994, just larger, you would have been right. But the software goldrush came and attracted many more who were just in it for the money or just weren't as thoughtful. Scale matters, upscaling people is hard.

I've got a strong suspicion that there would be more productivity if the bottom half of developer (or more) left the industry. Control for seniority, of course. The majority of 1Xers produce outright bad code, contribute disproportionately to tech debt, don't read user stories thoroughly, don't test their code properly, and generally get in everyone else's way. The most productive thing our industry could do is creat…

Agreed, I'd argue the even higher meta problem is that we're afraid to hurt feelings.

Because there is such a big drive for growth and more bodies, we have to tip toe around crap work and crap work ethics. Nothing wrong with being a bad dev perse if you accept it and learn to improve. But instead we ego stroke juniors and poor quality developers, inflate their contributions, inflate their title and then wonder when everything is shit at the end of the day. Those poorly trained juniors and boot camp devs are now eng managers, CTOs and loud evangelists that are driving our industry into the gutter with billions of funding.

Re: I don't care how you web dev; I just need more better web apps

#156

Post by ratww »

exodust wrote: post #133
rootusrootus wrote: post #44

Why are tech choices having such an impact on the experience to begin with? Aside from small apps, the web developer is just the guy making the magic happen, there should be an actual product owner somewhere who is making decisions on experience. It's up to the devs to make the experience happen, but poor design is a different problem than what framework you wrote the code in.

> who is making decisions on experience Product Owner: "Let's remove the Save button and instead simply save every time the user changes the value". Developer: "No".

I wish. Compared to 10 or 20 years ago developers have a lot less say in these things.

10 years ago I would be able to block some megalomaniac plan from an UI/UX designer outright.

Today it is borderline impossible, as designers tend to have 10x more power than before and don't really care about feedback from developers. Everything is done on a "Parallel Track" sprint, also known as "Waterfall", since designers can't really do Agile. So development teams get a bundle of tasks that's a black box until you open up and there's all kinds of custom shit copied from products from trillion-dollar companies, done by teams of hundreds or thousands.

Honestly having to work like this makes me consider leaving this industry.

Re: I don't care how you web dev; I just need more better web apps

#157

Post by jmull »

> The problem is that doing a Single-Page-App ‘properly’ is even more expensive than doing a mediocre Single-Page-App, which in turn is considerably more expensive than an old-style multi-page web service.

Is that true?

Having some experience with both styles, I don’t see a difference in time (after the learning curve for doing something new).

Re: I don't care how you web dev; I just need more better web apps

#160

Post by capableweb »

Existenceblinks wrote: post #158

If we ended javascript, 3/4 of these crazy disagreement will be gone. And no one will be seen as anti-react / anti-js anymore.

Better yet, end the web and the internet and there would be no disagreements at all about anything web related.

The only for disagreements you'll have will be with the people in your immediately vicinity. And to solve that, I propose another solution:

End all human life, and then we've solved every single problem of the world. No racism, no sexism, no bigotry and no problems for as far as the eye can see.

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