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Absurd Trolley Problems

neal.fun

431–440 of 951 posts

Re: Absurd Trolley Problems

#431
post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I got an 82, so assume we are thinking similarly. I am personally interrogating my response to this: "Oh no! A trolley is heading towards 5 people who tied themselves to the track. You can pull the lever to divert it to the other track, killing 1 person who accidentally tripped onto the track instead. What do you do?" I save the 5 over the 1. Only 15% agree with me. Why? This is the first Absurd Trolley Problem (I th…

100 years is a long time for humanity to look into ways to counteract time travelling trolleys! Sure it _says_ the future trolley will kill 5 people, but if I were in that situation I'm fairly sure I wouldn't be so certain. In your "political" example: Do you want a guaranteed bad outcome now, or what we expect to be the same bad outcome later?

Maybe we have medical resurrection in 100 years, so killing people might not be so bad. Plus future humans get a perfectly preserved example of a 100 year old trolley out of the deal, which is presumably a valuable antique.

Re: Absurd Trolley Problems

#433

>Oh no! Due to a construction error, a trolley is stuck in an eternal loop. If you pull the lever the trolley will explode, and if you don't the trolley and it's passengers will go in circles for eternity. What do you do? 50% of people pull the lever?!? I hereby declare that if I'm ever going to be stuck in a trolley for my entire life, I do NOT want the lever pulled. Toss me a smartphone charger and my life wouldn't…

They made a show about this called snow piercer.

The network executives should have pulled the lever after the first season

Re: Absurd Trolley Problems

#434
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> For some reason more people picked the latter. So, they just dislike public transit? I mean, it seems like it's the same trolley that have run over a lot of people for the previous 19 levels, why wouldn't I want to decommission such bloodthirsty trolley?

Isn’t the trolly also reducing carbon emissions by killing so many people? With enough of these questions, it will be able to reduce the world’s population to zero, at which point there should be no carbon emissions from humans.

Decomposition emits carbon, right? Let's fire everyone into interplanetary space to be sure we solved the problem.

Re: Absurd Trolley Problems

#435
post #373
post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I answered with the majority because I followed John Rawls' condition of the "veil of ignorance", which means that the only information I have to start with is: 1) an average person's life savings is less than 1 million 2) an average person's life is worth ~10 million

I have to take issue with 2) - for ethical and rational reasons I refuse to but a monetary value on people.

Contrary to popular belief, there's nothing unethical about attaching a price to a human life: it's a very uncomfortable question, and I think there ought to be some disagreement on what the number should be...

But money is fundamentally just a unit of value. We use it to compare the value of different things. We can use it to convert between labour (someone's time, which is a fraction of one's life) and goods and services. We can also use it to measure lives: 5 statistical lives lost is worse than 1 statistical life lost, all else being equal. We can also use it to weigh years lost to disability, etc.

Note that this doesn't mean things always have a fair price, and it says nothing about whether money is fairly allocated in society. And it certainly doesn't mean that people can be replaced with money. None of this is the point.

As a thought experiment, ask yourself the following questions:

- Is a human life worth more than nothing, or zero dollars? (I hope you will say yes)

- Is a human life worth more than 20$? (I hope you will say yes)

- Does a human life have infinite value? I hope you will agree that this is not the case: if it was, then we would be justified in sacrificing all of the world's resources combined, in order to save a single life. The paradox is that this would come at the cost of all other lives, which is clearly nonsensical. Even a pharaoh's life, or a king's life, is not normally considered to be worth the combined lives of all of his subjects, from the perspective of modern society. Lives have some non-zero, but finite, economic/social "value".

- Is there a fair price, in dollars, for an hour of labour or work? If there is, then you accept that there is some conversion factor between a fraction of a human life, and some amount of dollars.

Putting a price tag on a human life is something that is so important, that we ought to discuss it more often. Whether we put the price too high, or too low, is often what explains political disagreements on the provision of public goods and services. We do ourselves a great disservice by not forcing ourselves to come up with a concrete number, or by not being honest about what our numbers are. We should challenge each other's assumptions and ensure we put a fair price on it, and ensure that this price is based on the things that matter to us as a society.

Judges, actuarial scientists, and economists, all do it explicitly. Nobody agrees on a specific number, but they all pick a number. The rest of us? We do it implicitly, whether or not we're aware of it, every day of our lives. The problem is that our value judgments and our choices, especially if they are not conscious, are often not self-consistent.

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See also:

- https://fee.org/articles/marginalism-and-the-morality-of-pri...

- https://www.npr.org/2020/04/23/843310123/how-government-agen...

- https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg23230963-100-put-a-pr...

- https://asiatimes.com/2020/05/get-honest-about-the-price-of-...

- http://justiceharvard.org/lecture-3-putting-a-price-tag-on-l...

- https://www.porchlightbooks.com/blog/changethis/2020/all-liv...

- https://muse.jhu.edu/article/18688/pdf

Re: Absurd Trolley Problems

#436
post #424

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Imagine being at a railyard at the time of a crash and being seen throwing a switch in front of a moving train. There’s no real-world case where that person is not considered responsible. Not to mention that trains really cannot go over switches at speed. A runaway trolley would probably derail at the switch if it was set on the side track.

I think it’s reasonable to assume the trolley goes fast enough to do the deed, but not fast enough it couldn’t round the bend.

If you assume you make an ass out of you and me.

Re: Absurd Trolley Problems

#437

There’s only one of them that really gave me a lot of pause. 5 elderly people or one baby? Not necessarily that specific problem itself, but the Sorites paradox that is implied. What about 5 elderly people with one day of natural life left vs one baby with an expected lifespan of 100 years? Are we trying to maximize total time of human life? What if it’s low quality time though? 1,000,000 elderly people that had one…

I think the baby is the logical choice for utility maximisation: he still has a chance to develop in anything, maybe he could become the next Einstein or save the world. But the 5 elderly's contributions to society are probably over, however large those had been during their time.

Re: Absurd Trolley Problems

#438

>Oh no! Due to a construction error, a trolley is stuck in an eternal loop. If you pull the lever the trolley will explode, and if you don't the trolley and it's passengers will go in circles for eternity. What do you do? 50% of people pull the lever?!? I hereby declare that if I'm ever going to be stuck in a trolley for my entire life, I do NOT want the lever pulled. Toss me a smartphone charger and my life wouldn't…

>I hereby declare that if I'm ever going to be stuck in a trolley for my entire life, I do NOT want the lever pulled.

This isn't a democracy and I hold all of the levers of power.

Re: Absurd Trolley Problems

#439
post #369

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This also leads to a trolley problem! Keep existing public transit system that contributes to X deaths per year from pollution an accidents, or... ...pull the lever and... Replace it with a public transit system of bloodthirsty trolleys. There is zero pollution! Only 1% of X deaths per year from accidents! Just one catch: all the accidents involve the trolley morphing into a scary mechanical beast and biting a random…

People also cause pollution, so it might be less polluting in the long run to keep the trolley. But more seriously, I just realised that this is actually an argument that's often used against various environmental measures. People argue against wind turbines because they kill birds, ignoring the fact that pollution from fossil fuel kills far more, and birds are killed in larger numbers by other causes (cars, windows,…

If I remember correctly the original trolley problem was actually two problems. One was "pull the lever to kill one person instead of five" the other was "push someone onto the tracks (killing them) to stop the trolley and save five people".

More people were in favor of pulling the lever than there were in favor of pushing someone onto the tracks. This indeed hints that the more direct action, the harsher the judgement.

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