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I don't care how you web dev; I just need more better web apps

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Re: I don't care how you web dev; I just need more better web apps

#121

Post by tuxie_ »

EnKopVand wrote: post #104

I think the bad “web” has a lot more to do with the business side of things than whatever development tools you use. If the website is free to use, it’s either a passion or community project or it sells you. Sometimes that works out sort of well in places like HN, and other times it works out less well like on the infinite amount of shitty news papers. But those news papers can be shitty in all technologies even in t…

> I do think we need a better tool for finding the passion projects

I like the idea! I wonder though how that would look like. How do you imagine such a tool? Would it be something like a "directory" from back in the 90s where people submit their link under a specific category?

Re: I don't care how you web dev; I just need more better web apps

#122

Post by loh »

jillesvangurp wrote: post #85
loh wrote: post #76

I was just thinking about this exact topic less than an hour ago. We seem to be slowly reaching a consensus on various best practices and tools, and it's obvious which ones are winners and will be here to stay for the foreseeable future, despite the inevitable churn. There will always be discussion (and disagreements) on how to make things better, and when I was less experienced, I (ironically) used to be way more op…

I think the author's points are very valid. Despite the continuous debate and ever shifting landscape of what is fashionable in web development (which I find very tiresome to keep track off), most web apps pale in comparison to native apps. Why is that? Whatever it is, it seems elusive for web developers to come close in quality and experience. And they seem stuck in endless iterations of "maybe this will work ... no…

Sometimes web tech is the best tool for the job. Sometimes native is the best tool for the job. Sometimes it's a mix of both. Again, it depends on the requirements and the resources you have at your disposal.

Also, I think part of the reason you often see lower quality web apps (including the underlying tech) is because the barrier to entry is much lower than with native. If we improve the tooling around web tech, the average person can produce higher quality web apps. As it is now, I agree native generally comes with a better experience, but I see no reason why it can't be eventually matched on the web.

Re: I don't care how you web dev; I just need more better web apps

#124

Post by dusted »

croes wrote: post #54
omarhaneef wrote: post #28

The author complains that developers argue about their tools and methods, insist on their favorite techniques, but produce (more) worse apps. Particularly for the amount of time and effort expended on developing the apps. The thing is: the debates aren’t naive. They’re exactly trying to workout the details. When someone says, hey forget postgresql and just use SQLite, and someone else says good luck if you hit n rows…

I disagree. Web devs aren't discussing characters and plots but instead argue which typewriter to use. Better tools don't make better apps just like word processors don't make better books. The best web dev tools are worthless if the UX is bad.

You're making another important point.. Native have had fairly good tools for making GUIs, since like.. what.. 1991 ? Simple nice tools where you define your windows and drag the widgets onto them where you want them to be.. then hook up code to it... Web.. it's still stuck in the 80's in all the worst ways.. using a f*cking typewriter to define your UI.

Re: I don't care how you web dev; I just need more better web apps

#125

Post by exodust »

moring wrote: post #105
croes wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So just because you can remove screws more easily you build better shelves? You can build bad apps with good tools and good apps with bad tools. Just because it gets easier for the web dev doesn't makes it easier for the user and vice versa.

> So just because you can remove screws more easily you build better shelves? Yes, with a high probability. Try to put all your screwdrivers away and then try to build a shelf without them. Not only will you need lots of time just for fastening the parts that you cannot spend on thinking on a more optimal layout of the shelf, making the result worse -- you will also judge every layout idea on how hard it will be to b…

I don't think the argument was "screwdriver" vs "no screwdriver". It was about some tools being better than others.

Everyone in web dev uses tools of some sort. The argument might be that some tools are so advanced, it's like using a robot arm for tightening a few screws. Some devs will embrace robot arms, others will use a screwdriver.

Re: I don't care how you web dev; I just need more better web apps

#126

Post by croes »

Fire-Dragon-DoL wrote: post #111
croes wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So just because you can remove screws more easily you build better shelves? You can build bad apps with good tools and good apps with bad tools. Just because it gets easier for the web dev doesn't makes it easier for the user and vice versa.

Have you even tried building a shelf without a screw driver? It literally falls apart after one day of usage

You do realizes stable shelves existed before screws?

Re: I don't care how you web dev; I just need more better web apps

#127

Post by croes »

moring wrote: post #105
croes wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So just because you can remove screws more easily you build better shelves? You can build bad apps with good tools and good apps with bad tools. Just because it gets easier for the web dev doesn't makes it easier for the user and vice versa.

> So just because you can remove screws more easily you build better shelves? Yes, with a high probability. Try to put all your screwdrivers away and then try to build a shelf without them. Not only will you need lots of time just for fastening the parts that you cannot spend on thinking on a more optimal layout of the shelf, making the result worse -- you will also judge every layout idea on how hard it will be to b…

The argument "tools make the task substantially easier" was already a strawmen because the article is about bad UX with existing apps. And web devs already have "screwdrivers" but the apps don't get better.

Maybe it isn't the tools because there are great apps on the web,s some of them even without many tools. Maybe it's time to stop blaiming the tooling and focus on the developers and their environment.

I'm not a bad painter because of the wrong brushes, I'm just not good at it (yet).

Re: I don't care how you web dev; I just need more better web apps

#128

Post by danjac »

croes wrote: post #54
omarhaneef wrote: post #28

The author complains that developers argue about their tools and methods, insist on their favorite techniques, but produce (more) worse apps. Particularly for the amount of time and effort expended on developing the apps. The thing is: the debates aren’t naive. They’re exactly trying to workout the details. When someone says, hey forget postgresql and just use SQLite, and someone else says good luck if you hit n rows…

I disagree. Web devs aren't discussing characters and plots but instead argue which typewriter to use. Better tools don't make better apps just like word processors don't make better books. The best web dev tools are worthless if the UX is bad.

To a point. I don't need to care whether you wrote your novel on Word or a manual typewriter, by the time it gets to my Kindle or a printed paperback that doesn't matter.

On the other hand, if your web app takes forever to load because of a huge React payload or poor server performance, I do care.

Re: I don't care how you web dev; I just need more better web apps

#129

Post by Gareth321 »

I hate web apps with a passion. Has anyone ever used the iOS YouTube app? This thing is hailed as a marvelous examples of web apps working "like native." Bollocks. It's an absolute mess. If one of the wealthiest companies in the world can't build a decent web app, there is no hope for anyone else.

Web apps get the user 80% of what they want with 50% of the cost, so the business case is clear. That's why these apps are proliferating. They are not proliferating because they're good, as good, or better. They're just not.

Re: I don't care how you web dev; I just need more better web apps

#130

Post by rat9988 »

berkes wrote: post #114
croes wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Frameworks are tools

No. They aren't. Frameworks are the scaffolding, the skeleton. They dictate the shape. It's literally in the name. > : a skeletal, openwork, or structural frame Tools are the things you use to build within that skeleton. More pragmatic: Rails is a framework that dictates an MVC shape, with an RDS, that produces server side rendered HTML or data in a RESTfull manner. The tools you use for Rails development are your ID…

They are still tools though.
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