The title is confusing. Do we need much better apps? Or more, better apps? “More better” is such a mind fuck
More betterest.
I don't care how you web dev; I just need more better web apps
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Re: I don't care how you web dev; I just need more better web apps
#22Just an observation: the native apps that are better are built on massive, proprietary frameworks developed by platform owners. In some ways, most of the web frameworks are trying to be the One True Web Platform Framework that similarly makes it possible for developers to make better web apps the way that say, AppKit or UIKit makes that possible on Apple's platforms.
So I'm left wondering, did the frameworks fail or did the web developer community fail?
Re: I don't care how you web dev; I just need more better web apps
#23Re: I don't care how you web dev; I just need more better web apps
#24One thing I've noticed is that almost all new web frameworks I come across nowadays seems to be catered towards search engine optimization (i.e.: getting 99/100 on Google PageSpeed Insights).
Are you confusing SEO with performance? Lighthouse does have a SEO category but it isn't exposed through the PSI web app.
It's a very specific kind of performance. It doesn't measure long running apps, interactions and visualizations.
When you play a video game you might have to download and install it first, which might take quite a while, but we don't say "this game has bad performance" because of that.
Lighthouse measures that first second or first few seconds after you visit a site at position 0/0. It doesn't care about how much bloat comes after you scroll. It discourages you to pre-load resources (including JS and CSS) which you don't _immediately_ need for that first hit.
It is really about content and marketing websites with low interaction. You can absolutely make good interactive applications that also get a high Lighthouse score, but the overlap is not necessarily always feasible or the best tradeoff to make.
Re: I don't care how you web dev; I just need more better web apps
#25Re: I don't care how you web dev; I just need more better web apps
#26Just an observation: the native apps that are better are built on massive, proprietary frameworks developed by platform owners. In some ways, most of the web frameworks are trying to be the One True Web Platform Framework that similarly makes it possible for developers to make better web apps the way that say, AppKit or UIKit makes that possible on Apple's platforms. So I'm left wondering, did the frameworks fail or…
The new breed of try-hard build-big "final"-framework would-be's plays against what the web is, trades incrementalism stengths for probably-not-all-that totalization. trying to decide & pick the one true platform, giving up the more malleable low level platform is the problem, is what the closed-world expectations have ruined the web's great prospects with.
Re: I don't care how you web dev; I just need more better web apps
#27I think the article needs to kick off with examples of less better web apps, otherwise I am a bit confused a out what is wrong and what he wants us to fix instead of bikeshedding frameworks.
Re: I don't care how you web dev; I just need more better web apps
#28The author complains that developers argue about their tools and methods, insist on their favorite techniques, but produce (more) worse apps. Particularly for the amount of time and effort expended on developing the apps.
The thing is: the debates aren’t naive. They’re exactly trying to workout the details.
When someone says, hey forget postgresql and just use SQLite, and someone else says good luck if you hit n rows, and someone says it can easily handle n+m rows with x memory …
Well they’re trying to solve the problem of (more) better apps with their limited resources. That’s essentially the problem of development.
Asking people to solve development without discussing the tools and methods is to misunderstand the nature of the discussion.
It’s like telling authors to get on and write better novels and not waste time with their opinions on character and plot.
Re: I don't care how you web dev; I just need more better web apps
#29> Everybody seems to have an opinion on how you do your web dev and how websites and web apps should be structured.
It’s true and it leads to many annoying unproductive arguments, IMO the reason is a fundamental lack of a scientific mindset in evaluating techniques and tooling. We don’t have theories or testable hypotheses, we have opinions.
On one level I like and agree with the author’s idea that results are what really matter. As an engineer trying to achieve outcomes for employers, clients, and customers, this approach has served me well.
As a community of professionals, it would be nice to see more effort to work towards rigorously proven conclusions about what works best and why.
When someone touts a paradigm, technique, or framework as the best, without any real data or theory as to why, I think they should be told to provide evidence or withdraw their argument, and I’d say that goes double when it’s the framework or technique you like or use. IMO, these shouldn’t be fights about tech, they should be ones about quality of discourse.