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The Swerve

locusmag.com

61–70 of 207 posts

Re: The Swerve

#61
post #57

Respectfully suggest this is nonsense. No serious climate scientist thinks we are going to fall off a cliff. There will be huge costs, yes. Civilization won't end, no. What people fail to grasp is that costs can be absolutely enormous but look like a blip compared to the effect of GDP growth in the long run. World War II is an example. The millions of deaths barely show up on a graph of world population. The huge los…

> No serious climate scientist thinks we are going to fall off a cliff. There will be huge costs, yes. Civilization won't end, no.

I've read more than a couple of articles, linked to here on HN, of climate scientists claiming that this is indeed a civilization-ending cliff.

It's been mentioned like this in other media, for example in Cosmos 2. Yes, that's divulgation, but nonetheless, it means the scientists consulted for Cosmos 2 believe this.

edit: just googled Michael Shellenberger. He is not a subject matter expert on climate change, and Wikipedia describes him as "a controversial figure" among environmentalists, which means his position is not mainstream and probably shouldn't be used to state "no serious scientist believes...". Note: I'm not saying he is wrong, he could be right; it's just that his view is not mainstream for now.

Re: The Swerve

#62
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't seem to be engaging with the main point here: there were places that DID take COVID seriously--that shut down overnight, paid the price of mass unemployment, homelessness and growing tent cities, increasing substance abuse / overdose, loss of education that will never be recovered and countless other second-order effects. And those places did not emerge with a significantly better COVID outcome. Without an…

Those places would have come out better if we all did this. And that's the whole problem: if you don't tackle problems of this magnitude globally then you might as well not bother because a couple of dissidents on a large enough scale will ruin it for everybody else. In this case the dissidents even use this argument to show that the better choices didn't work... which when you think about it is really despicable.

>Those places would have come out better if we all did this.

If we all did what, exactly?

I live in Canada. We shut down our economy, spent vast amounts of money on social supports, had wide vaccine and booster adoption...and had similar results to many countries that did far less than that.

Our smallest province had, literally, zero deaths and a handful of hospitalizations for over a year into the pandemic. It was an example to the world. Then Omicron hit and that province had one of the worst infection rates in the world. Almost like nothing they did mattered and it was just a matter of time...

>In this case the dissidents even use this argument to show that the better choices didn't work

And the conformists keep moving the goalposts, claiming we didn't do enough. You need to tell people what they need to do, and for how long, and then you're kinda hemmed in. We were told vaccines would get us "back to normal" (even that they prevented the spread). It turned out they were remotely as effective as claimed. How long can normal people be offered that carrot, then have to backtrack, before they revolt?

I agree that global coordination would be fantastic, but probably impossible.

Re: The Swerve

#64
> Incredibly, climate denial still festers. “There’s no cliff,” they insist. “This bus is on a smooth road that goes all the way to the promised land. Only a fool would swerve now.”

I think I get the main theme, but I don't think "climate cliff" is a useful analogy. It makes one picture a scene of relative calm until suddenly (and abruptly) the shit hits the fan, when the reality is going to be far more messy. (Just look at all those historians who could never agree on exactly what year the Roman Empire fell.)

If anything, it will make people argue "Well, we haven't hit the cliff yet, which means we still have time," or, worse, "They've preached that we will hit the cliff by 2020, a bunch of liars!"

I think the fictional "denialist" in the sentence is actually half right. Instead of a cliff, we will have a smooth ride... to hell. We will never have one glorious catastrophe where we get to say "I told you so" five seconds before dying. Instead, half of the passengers will still be arguing that we're fine while we're slowly dying.

Re: The Swerve

#65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are only a few countries that really shut down (some only regional): New Zealand, Japan, Australia and China (others?). This one graph shows how effective it was and if we'd all done that the difference would be enormous, even for the countries that did shut down. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COVID-19_pandemic_by_country_a...

Without a really deep dive I'm not certain the island-country numbers of Australia or Japan would be achievable in the US, but if I use Canada as a "certainly achievable standin" I would state my position as "unconvinced that the marginal benefits of additional restrictions initially + for longer would be worth it" but also "entirely convinced that if the US hadn't taken the steps it did, both individually and govern…

Without global coordination it's a wash. With global coordination it might have made a difference.

Re: The Swerve

#66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is the evidence for the claim in your first sentence? And what does "come out better" mean? Less covid, but more unemployment, more drug addiction, more suicides than the ones that happened? With climate change, what exactly are we optimizing for? That's never been clear to me. We want to destroy the world's economy to keep the climate from changing? How long will the climate "not change"? In other words, the go…

How is a desire to invest rapidly in new, less environmentally disruptive, technology development wanting to "destroy the world's economy"? Seems like the opposite to me, unless your personal interests are tied up in legacy monopolistic businesses. It's like being opposed to Apple and Microsoft in the late 70s because you're worried about destroying IBM or mainframes.

The whole global economy is built around cheap energy sources that also happen to be at least 100 times more efficient than solar, wind, or even nuclear. Petroleum is BY FAR the most efficient way of storing energy.

Wind and solar power are both intermittent. That's fine if you live in a coastal city in a temperate zone, but most people in the world do not. So efficient energy storage becomes a huge problem. And we have two main timecycles for which we have to store energy: capturing it during the day and releasing it at night (to charge all those EVs) and also capturing it during the summer and releasing it over the winter. That would require longer-term storage AND while we can capture the most energy during the summer, that's also the highest period of use because the world is now also air-conditioned.

If you end petroleum production, that also ends all plastic production. So all the cheap gewgaws from China disappear.

Also, did you know that solar panels are made from firing coal and quartz together at high temperatures? Do you know why they're all made in China? Because of much less strict environmental regulations there. Did you also know that solar panels have a lifespan of only 15-20 years, and that they're not recyclable?

I could go on and on, but there's no magic "alternative energy source" that even comes close to being able to provide stable power at a cost that comes anywhere close to petroleum, not to mention how portable petroleum is as an energy source. Nuclear power is the only thing that even comes close, but it's fraught with trouble as well.

You think there will be solar-powered shipping vessels? Trains are electric, but you know what runs the electric motors on them? The on-board diesel generators!

The global economy is based on cheap energy sources. Increase the cost and reduce the availability of the energy sources and yeah, you'll destroy the economy.

Re: The Swerve

#67
post #57

Respectfully suggest this is nonsense. No serious climate scientist thinks we are going to fall off a cliff. There will be huge costs, yes. Civilization won't end, no. What people fail to grasp is that costs can be absolutely enormous but look like a blip compared to the effect of GDP growth in the long run. World War II is an example. The millions of deaths barely show up on a graph of world population. The huge los…

Also the biggest problem to solve for the climate crisis is to solve for diesel fuel. If you could replace Diesel engines with anything else or curb their emissions that is the biggest contributor to CO2.

Re: The Swerve

#68
post #64

> Incredibly, climate denial still festers. “There’s no cliff,” they insist. “This bus is on a smooth road that goes all the way to the promised land. Only a fool would swerve now.” I think I get the main theme, but I don't think "climate cliff" is a useful analogy. It makes one picture a scene of relative calm until suddenly (and abruptly) the shit hits the fan, when the reality is going to be far more messy. (Just…

It doesn't really matter, does it? As analogies go it's pretty clear what the message is and for that purpose this metaphor is good enough. Any arguing over the shape of the metaphor is essentially pointless, if you didn't get it then it doesn't matter because you are clearly not the target audience, and if you did get it you realize that it is a leaky abstraction, but a useful one nonetheless.

Re: The Swerve

#69
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't seem to be engaging with the main point here: there were places that DID take COVID seriously--that shut down overnight, paid the price of mass unemployment, homelessness and growing tent cities, increasing substance abuse / overdose, loss of education that will never be recovered and countless other second-order effects. And those places did not emerge with a significantly better COVID outcome. Without an…

Those places would have come out better if we all did this. And that's the whole problem: if you don't tackle problems of this magnitude globally then you might as well not bother because a couple of dissidents on a large enough scale will ruin it for everybody else. In this case the dissidents even use this argument to show that the better choices didn't work... which when you think about it is really despicable.

> Those places would have come out better if we all did this.

Evidence required.

Alternative claim: "Those places would have come out worse if we all did this" - neither of which can be proved.

Re: The Swerve

#70
post #53

It's not a bus, it's a train. Best case you can slow it down for a few people to jump off. Carter told people to wear a sweater and the American people flipped out and elected a ghoulish union-busting zombie. Twice. There will be no change until it is forced upon us when the treats stop flowing. And even then you just have to hope that the populace has an accurate story in their heads as to why.

it's a train, and it crashed already, but it's a rather humongous train, most of the train hasn't yet felt the shock from the crash also, it's not a literal train, some people will be able to say there's no crash even as they fly out

... and the first class passengers simply exit and fly off in their jetpacks.
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