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Car Quality Is Slipping

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Re: Car Quality Is Slipping

#71

Post by [deleted] »

hedora wrote: post #58
wallaBBB wrote: post #29

These type of articles that do not breakdown the type of complaints are worthless. The trend of increased complaints has been present for a few years now, but when broken down the increase comes vastly from infotainment and SW related issues. And it is expected, SW complexity in the infotainment part has skyrocketed and automotive companies are in their core HW companies, not SW companies and are slow to adapt. I wou…

Yeah; the infotainment system in our Ram has only had one major issue. So did the transmission, tailgate, exhaust manifold, and cruise control. Two of those five issues were life threatening, and one could strand the car. The infotainment problem is comparatively minor: Sometimes it corrupts the GPS azimuth(?) data.

[deleted]

Re: Car Quality Is Slipping

#72

Post by drfuchs »

ramesh31 wrote: post #34
MisterTea wrote: post #14

Mo' tech mo' problems. Just give me a car that goes forward, backwards, left and right with a roof, windows, seats with few luxuries: air conditioning, power locks/windows, remote start (winter savior). For safety I will take ABS, maybe ESP. Leave me an industry standard DIN or double DIN opening for a radio and speaker locations; factory options always suck. Transmission can be manual or automatic. The rest is fluff…

This why the late 90's to early 2000s was objectively the greatest era for reliable good cars. You had everything that makes a modern car great; standard ABS, disc brakes, cruise control, power locks/windows, reliable traditional automatic transmissions, ECU/fuel injection, airbags, etc. without all of the unnecessary nonsense that has made cars insanely expensive over the last 20 years

Then again, I remember when your list of "great" features was exactly what was perceived as making "cars insanely expensive" and unreliable at the time. And a generation or two earlier, it was seatbelts, headrests, fuel injectors replacing carburetors, power windows, digital clocks instead of mechanical(!), digital radio tuning instead of mechanical(!!), etc., all of which many folks complained were just being added to drive up the MSRP.

On the flip side, having experienced post-2000 adaptive cruise control, rear-view camera, blind-spot indicators in side-view mirrors, auto-release emergency brake, integration with phone for Waze and such, etc., I would not want to go back. Indeed, I find myself noticeably annoyed when a car rental is missing any of these features.

Re: Car Quality Is Slipping

#73

Post by [deleted] »

hedora wrote: post #58
wallaBBB wrote: post #29

These type of articles that do not breakdown the type of complaints are worthless. The trend of increased complaints has been present for a few years now, but when broken down the increase comes vastly from infotainment and SW related issues. And it is expected, SW complexity in the infotainment part has skyrocketed and automotive companies are in their core HW companies, not SW companies and are slow to adapt. I wou…

Yeah; the infotainment system in our Ram has only had one major issue. So did the transmission, tailgate, exhaust manifold, and cruise control. Two of those five issues were life threatening, and one could strand the car. The infotainment problem is comparatively minor: Sometimes it corrupts the GPS azimuth(?) data.

[deleted]

Re: Car Quality Is Slipping

#75

Post by [deleted] »

notacoward wrote: post #67
oldstrangers wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Subaru and the WRX is just notoriously unreliable, and that's always sort of been the case unfortunately.

The word among mechanics I've talked to is that yes, Subarus break down more often than other Japanese brands, but they're also cheap and easy to repair so the total cost is similar. The repair cost for even basic stuff on a Toyota is eye-watering.

[deleted]

Re: Car Quality Is Slipping

#76

Post by dugmartin »

dispatchapp wrote: post #28

My 2014 WRX has had a myriad of reliability issues. Bone stock, always maintained, and just constantly going into the dealer for issues. Thankfully I have an extended warranty. Issue #1: 19k miles - OEM turbo blows. Subaru FSE determines a bearing seized prematurely. Turbo replaced. Issue #2: 23k miles - Replacement turbo starts making more sounds mimicking the same noises the OEM turbo made before it blew. Subaru re…

> it wasn't the exhaust shields as suspected

Ah, the Subaru exhaust rattle. We had it in our Outback and I hear it in every Subaru over a couple of years old here in Western Massachusetts. It is as distinctive as the exhaust note on MGs used to be.

Re: Car Quality Is Slipping

#77

Post by calvinmorrison »

mywittyname wrote: post #66
calvinmorrison wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

GM's ecotech is built on iterative improvements of Triumph Slant-4 engine which showed up in 1968.

Right, but claims like that are harder to substantiate because they often rely on circumstantial information, like shares bore centers or ancillary components, which could be the result of company policy and not indicative of direct lineage. Whereas, tracing the lineage of a Nissan VQ, GM L-series, or VAG EA motor back to the 90s is very easy. Choosing 90s was basically a CYA for a "citation needed" claim.

Slant -> Saab H -> Saab B -> Ecotec.

Granted it's a bit of a stretch from B -> Ecotech, but not too far.

Re: Car Quality Is Slipping

#78

Post by kjs3 »

ramesh31 wrote: post #18
abfan1127 wrote: post #7

Initial quality always seemed like a silly measure to me. I'm more interested in total cost of ownership through 150k-200k miles. Own a GM for 90 days vs own a GM for 15 years and you'll have vastly different results, IMO.

Reality is that no one owns a car for 200k miles anymore. There are of course outliers, but the vast majority of people are either buying/leasing/trading every 3-4 years, or are at the opposite end of the spectrum buying whatever cheap rust heap they can keep running.

I don't think that's true at all. My experience (which appears to be the same level of 'fact' as you present) is that there are people who lease, who trade out cars every X years like clockwork, and people who buy who keep the car until something happens that clicks 'that isn't worth fixing', which these days is often way down the road. Possible not 200k miles, but far more than 3-4 years.

FWIW, other than one car I bought new, every car I've had I purchased off-lease (so lowish miles and 2-3 years old) and kept it for at least 7-10 years, often getting to 200k miles.

Re: Car Quality Is Slipping

#79

Post by vgeek »

abfan1127 wrote: post #7

Initial quality always seemed like a silly measure to me. I'm more interested in total cost of ownership through 150k-200k miles. Own a GM for 90 days vs own a GM for 15 years and you'll have vastly different results, IMO.

I look at the drivetrain as the biggest barometer. When Toyota does iterative design, such as from 20r to 22re to 2rz, they typically make small improvements based on the flaws of prior generations-- so a 250k mile engine may become a 300k mile engine. When manufacturers just start from scratch each generation and skimp on R&D, that is way riskier.

When you look at how many HF3.6 engine vehicles GM sold over the past 15 years vs how many you see on the road now, reliability (or lack of) becomes obvious. There will obviously be outliers, but the fat part of the curve (in terms of miles at failure) is what is relevant. Even when constraining for things like profile of buyer (e.g. subprime buyers will probably skimp on preventative maintenance), it becomes obvious which companies want to make quality cars and those that are mostly subprime finance companies that happen to sell cars (Stellantis, Nissan to a degree).

Re: Car Quality Is Slipping

#80

Post by kjs3 »

bastard_op wrote: post #74

Apparently these millennials weren't around for the 70's of automobile manufacturing in the US. No driveway was without an oil leak.

So very true...thank's for the chuckle at those memories. And back then, oil spot on the driveway the size of a dinner plate meant 'put more oil in...it'll be fine'. Now a single drop of oil on the driveway means 'omfg get it to the shop'.
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