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FedEx to close data centers, retire mainframes

datacenterdynamics.com

351–360 of 573 posts

Re: FedEx to close data centers, retire mainframes

#351

Its weird to have companies say they're moving from Mainframes to the Cloud. The Mainframe is a sort of cloud, each one has usually double the spare capacity and you call IBM to unlock it. The cost of running a Mainframe is measured in terms of MIPS based on amount of compute used and there's compute reserved for offloading things like JITs (zAAPS). Essentially a version of cloud compute costs. I can understand if yo…

I doubt they have too much COBOL lock-in, since the article notes their datacenter opened in 2008. Here's the thing: A mainframe may have spare capacity, but you still have to call IBM to unlock it. In order to make a Z run in a cost-effective manner, you need to run at 90%+ utilization at all times - which is excellent for batch jobs that can be scheduled, but is difficult to achieve with on-demand loads. You're pay…

> a phone call to big blue is not automated. Cloud autoscaling is.

Respectfully, the hell you say. Cloud 'autoscaling' is something that has to be tenderly maintained by software engineers, who expect to be paid salaries and benefits and so on. It's not like FedEx can just rsync their data into the cloud and have all their software run forever. Instead, they need the engineering team that manages their existing data workflows, and now they also need cloud engineers to translate that into something that won't bankrupt the company, since they're moving from the mainframe world (where you keep your system loaded to an efficient price point) to the cloud world (where you are billed by the second).

Moving your compute spend from capex to opex is a perfectly valid move, but pretending the reason is that someone has to make a phone call once in a while is kind of bizarre, when the alternative is having to hire a whole new cadre of techincal talent.

Re: FedEx to close data centers, retire mainframes

#352

"save" In the very short term. Data centers are expensive as hell to operate, but so is the cloud. I think colo would have been the way to go.

Most financial analysis are companies are short-term. But labor costs keep going up and cloud computing costs keep going down. So I don't see how this is short-termism.

> cloud computing costs keep going down.

For now.

I also have to keep reminding my coworkers that AWS gives us faster cores every few years but so far they always have the exact same amount of memory. So caching things (especially in process, but also on loop back) to save computation isn’t really a winning long term strategy. It’s never going to get better than what it does for you in the beginning. It will only decline in value.

Re: FedEx to close data centers, retire mainframes

#353
post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm simplifying here, but it feels to me like you are making the assumption that FedEx is a mostly static business, whose IT needs should be all about minimizing the cost per IO or compute operation. In the real world, business needs are rarely static, and moving fast and innovating is extremely valuable, even for a company as large as FedEx. They are choosing to move resources from managing their IT infra to AWS, bu…

Probably the right amount of rented data center capacity for FedEx is not zero, yes. But it's not 100%, either, because what they're giving up is the ability to move faster when their outsourced system administration vendor isn't meeting their needs.

The optimum is very likely near one of the extrema. Either 0% or 100%.

Anything in between will just mix all the problems of a cloud with all the problems of running a datacenter.

Re: FedEx to close data centers, retire mainframes

#354

Are they really going to save 400 m$, or was it the figure "promised" by the shop that will handle the migration?

>Are they really going to save 400 m$ I'm sure they'll save many millions. Earlier this year I left FedEx after 15 1/2 years of service. Every single day I used an IBM AS/400 terminal to interact with several systems to do my job, the bulk of my job was done via that terminal. Yeah, that's how old most of FedEx's tech is. A few months before I left they had just migrated one of our in-house systems over to Oracle lik…

IBM i on modern Power machines is fine as far as performance goes.

The hideous frontend of greenscreen RPG programs is optional, you could replace them with Java if anyone cared enough about UX for internal tools (they don't).

The hard part with that stack is getting RPG devs - most of them are 50+ and expensive.

Re: FedEx to close data centers, retire mainframes

#355
post #19

Ultimately companies that abdicate their informatics operations like this will give their profits to their data-center operators, who will be empowered to charge them whatever price they want. Because what's their BATNA? Migrating from Azure to AWS when Microsoft doesn't want to let them? Renting your information infrastructure is a great way to reduce startup costs, but down the road, that information infrastructure…

> Renting your information infrastructure is a great way to reduce startup costs

they can rent hardware only, and still run their own infra (kubernets and all stuff on top on it), then they can negotiate reasonable prices and migrate away if they want to.

Re: FedEx to close data centers, retire mainframes

#356

"save" In the very short term. Data centers are expensive as hell to operate, but so is the cloud. I think colo would have been the way to go.

Most financial analysis are companies are short-term. But labor costs keep going up and cloud computing costs keep going down. So I don't see how this is short-termism.

I see most places raising their prices as seed funding goes out.

Re: FedEx to close data centers, retire mainframes

#357
post #19

Ultimately companies that abdicate their informatics operations like this will give their profits to their data-center operators, who will be empowered to charge them whatever price they want. Because what's their BATNA? Migrating from Azure to AWS when Microsoft doesn't want to let them? Renting your information infrastructure is a great way to reduce startup costs, but down the road, that information infrastructure…

>Renting your information infrastructure is a great way to reduce startup costs, but down the road, that information infrastructure runs your company. Trying to outsource it is like trying to outsource upper management. This isn't a one size fits all thing. For a company like FedEx I don't see the advantage of owning their own data centers. They just don't have the scaling challenges that would require that. Data cen…

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Re: FedEx to close data centers, retire mainframes

#358
post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That seems to be a common take on HN - cloud is too expensive. I'm curious whether the folks claiming that have any data center ops experience. Because, personally, I'd rather retire than deal with Dell, HP, Cisco, fibers, cooling issues, physical security, hardware failling... And that's just the hardware. Then you still need to pay VMWare for a decent virtualization platform, monitoring tools, etc.... Seriously, no…

1000% this. HN loves to talk about Dropbox. I spent most of my (short, praise God) career at Dropbox diagnosing a fleet of dodgy database servers we bought from HPE. Turns out they were full of little flecks of metal inside. Thousands of em, full of iron filings. You think that kind of thing happens when you are an AWS customer? If you are sophisticated enough to engage an ODM, build your own facilities, and put hvac…

I mean, you did want to manage bare metal servers, right?

AWS almost certainly gets batches of bad hardware too. And if your services are running on the bad hardware, you can't have a peek inside and find the iron filings. For servers, this is probably not too bad, there used to be articles about dealing with less enthusiastic ec2 vms since a long time, and if you experience that, you'd find a way. AWS has enough capacity that you can probably get vms running on a different batch of hardware somehow. With owned hardaware, if it was your first order of important database servers and they're all dodgy, that's a pickle; HPE probably has quick support? once you realize it's their hardware.

If your cloud provider's network is dodgy though, you get to diagnose that as a blackbox which is lots of fun. Would have loved to have access to router statistics.

There's a lot of stuff in betwren AWS and on-prem/owned datacenter, too.

Re: FedEx to close data centers, retire mainframes

#359

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bodybuilders make progress though :)

Isn't there a ceiling? Or if we lived as long as those turtles, would you go to the gym and see spheres of muscle?

The returns are diminishing each cycle.

Re: FedEx to close data centers, retire mainframes

#360
post #23

Making accurate calculations of data center cost is of course complicated and rarely manages to take everything into account, but the common knowledge I’ve heard is that there comes a point when a company is so large that going on-prem is what actually saves them a lot of money. If FedEx is not large enough to be one of those companies, how large do you actually have to be? Or has cloud pricing changed to the point w…

Running your own data centers is a form of vertical consolidation, which is a strategy. Specialization is the opposite strategy. A single company may strategically decide to specialize some things and vertically consolidate others.

The dollars-and-cents are details. Those matter, of course, but don't base your entire analysis there. Staying vertically integrated may help fedex be 4.713% more profitable today, but might miss out on important growth areas and become a dinosaur. Or maybe the important growth areas involve data center innovations, and staying vertically integrated allows them to exploit those opportunities. So it's not always an easy decision, but it involves more than the present-day costs.

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