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The Water Wars Come to the Suburbs

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Re: The Water Wars Come to the Suburbs

#31

Post by knappe »

joshuaheard wrote: post #14

On a planet that is 2/3 water, I think we can find a solution. Desalination comes to mind. We built an interstate highway system. We can build an interstate water distribution system for desalinated Pacific Ocean water.

Okay, I'll bite. So the proposition is to truck water 364 miles (from the next largest city center I could find, San Diego). I think you might be suggesting a pipeline, but let's be real, there won't be water in Scottsdale in 5 years (and a pipeline won't be done anytime before that). People already find water brought in from _Phoenix_ which is _13_ miles away to be too expensive.

So what exactly is the solution?

Re: The Water Wars Come to the Suburbs

#32

Post by caramelcustard »

crooked-v wrote: post #20
joshuaheard wrote: post #14

On a planet that is 2/3 water, I think we can find a solution. Desalination comes to mind. We built an interstate highway system. We can build an interstate water distribution system for desalinated Pacific Ocean water.

For this particular situation, that's a lot of money to spend just to serve already-well-off people willingly choosing to live in the desert in a drought.

Almost any significant technological innovation was expensive to provide to the public in its infancy but as the time went on, it became more accessible to the public. Right off the bat, i could name airplane transportation as a fine example.

Re: The Water Wars Come to the Suburbs

#33

Post by pj_mukh »

bradfa wrote: post #5

I can feel for the people who have been living there for a long time and now have to deal with the water situation. But I can't understand the attitudes of people who are choosing to move to such a place where access to water is such a risk. I have no information about this, but I would expect that homeowner's insurance should get much more expensive for these locations as without access to water it's quite hard to h…

This is a real problem in California and is some how ingrained into the political structure and hard to shake.

The Governor last year: "“There’s something that is truly Californian about the wilderness and the wild and pioneering spirit,” Newsom said in an interview with The Associated Press. “I’m not advocating for no (building).” [1]

AFAIK, lawmakers are actually considering subsidizing insurance costs for exurbs in places that were never meant to host human habitation year round.

[1]: https://apnews.com/article/b17b5c9200a64466b49f3f605f9202fe

Re: The Water Wars Come to the Suburbs

#34

Post by legitster »

csnover wrote: post #10
citizenpaul wrote: post #8

I can't find it anymore but I read a long form article like this probably 10 years ago on the problem of suburbs public infrastructure. Basically they ran the numbers and figured out that more than 50% of cities simply cannot afford to maintain the suburb infrastructure no matter what they do with the budget. Even if they did something crazy like tripled taxes tomorrow they still could not afford it. The called them…

You are probably thinking of The Growth Ponzi Scheme[0], which was adapted into a video series by Not Just Bikes[1]. [0] https://www.strongtowns.org/the-growth-ponzi-scheme/ [1] https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLJp5q-R0lZ0_FCUbeVWK6...

I would take this with a huge grain of salt

- Other countries do have expansive suburbs. They don't look like ours, but they are fundamentally the same. Get outside of any major metropolitan and you will see spaced out houses in subdivisions with lawns.

- The ASCE number is a bit of a joke - this is a marketing number for the purposes of pushing investment in engineering firms. In reality, your city doesn't need to pay to rebuild every suburban road it has when filling potholes is cheap.

- Furthermore, this article does nothing to actually link these liabilities to where the revenues occur. The giant cost of replacing an aging power plant completely dwarfs the cost of suburban power lines. But a new subdivision is a huge tax boon to a community.

Re: The Water Wars Come to the Suburbs

#35

Post by danaris »

sbf501 wrote: post #19
juve1996 wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Meaning they are used to living in the "Land of plenty" never thinking that one day, it could end. This was my thought as well. The music is about to stop. Many don't realize it. Some don't believe it. Some actively deny it. But it's happening, and faster than we're ready for.

Many of us do realize it and are just sitting here staring at the screen at work realizing what a horrible mistake it all was, and hoping the fall won't as bad as the movies lead us to believe.

I am frequently reminded these days of a particular New Yorker cartoon [0].

We can still avert most of the predicted catastrophes, but we need to stop letting the people with the money just dictate policy to the rest of us to favor themselves.

[0] https://www.newyorker.com/cartoon/a16995

Re: The Water Wars Come to the Suburbs

#36

Post by __derek__ »

MisterTea wrote: post #15
bradfa wrote: post #5

I can feel for the people who have been living there for a long time and now have to deal with the water situation. But I can't understand the attitudes of people who are choosing to move to such a place where access to water is such a risk. I have no information about this, but I would expect that homeowner's insurance should get much more expensive for these locations as without access to water it's quite hard to h…

> But I can't understand the attitudes of people who are choosing to move to such a place where access to water is such a risk. From the article: "They believe that the county is not going to let five hundred homes next to one of the wealthiest cities go without water.” In their mind: "This is America." Meaning they are used to living in the "Land of plenty" never thinking that one day, it could end.

Juxtaposing this with the Flint water crisis -- which occurred in a place with abundant fresh water, albeit no wealthy cities next door -- is really something. They may be right, but this is not a bet I would be comfortable making.

Re: The Water Wars Come to the Suburbs

#37

Post by nostromo »

I'll voice an unpopular opinion: people should live in these dry areas.

Deserts have wildlife, yes, but they have much less biomass than the other places humans live. A person living in Arizona or Nevada is displacing much less natural wildlife than a person like me, living in Seattle.

So I say let's embrace people living in water-starved areas like the Southwest. We can enable it by smart water usage, like you see in Vegas, combined with things like smart water diversion and desalinization.

Re: The Water Wars Come to the Suburbs

#38

Post by almost_usual »

BaseballPhysics wrote: post #12
mooreds wrote: post #2

The final quote is chilling: “We got two great offers in, and neither of them cared about the water situation. They believe that the county is not going to let five hundred homes next to one of the wealthiest cities go without water.” We'll see what happens in 2023, when Scottsdale no longer sells water to the water haulers. The Water Knife feels more and more prophetic.

Eh, it's the same logic when people move to coastal areas that will be impacted by sea level rise. No one can imagine they'll be the ones who get screwed over, and certainly not if they're wealthy. As such, I'm not sure I would call it chilling so much as entirely predictable. The real failure is in the states and municipalities that are approving the building in the first place.

NOAA has a sea level rise viewer.

https://coast.noaa.gov/slr

In the Bay Area the ocean coast communities aren’t very impacted. The Bay coast is significantly impacted, Foster City is already building a levee.

https://fostercitylevee.org/

Re: The Water Wars Come to the Suburbs

#39

Post by nostromo »

csnover wrote: post #10
citizenpaul wrote: post #8

I can't find it anymore but I read a long form article like this probably 10 years ago on the problem of suburbs public infrastructure. Basically they ran the numbers and figured out that more than 50% of cities simply cannot afford to maintain the suburb infrastructure no matter what they do with the budget. Even if they did something crazy like tripled taxes tomorrow they still could not afford it. The called them…

You are probably thinking of The Growth Ponzi Scheme[0], which was adapted into a video series by Not Just Bikes[1]. [0] https://www.strongtowns.org/the-growth-ponzi-scheme/ [1] https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLJp5q-R0lZ0_FCUbeVWK6...

Strong Towns starts with the conclusion and then creates arguments to support it. It's interesting writing, but I wouldn't take it too seriously.

Re: The Water Wars Come to the Suburbs

#40

Post by grumblez »

throwaway193948 wrote: post #26

this isn’t really the suburbs. it’s a more rural area with water wells and not hooked up to the main water service new suburb developments in az are required to prove they have a 100 year water supply

Yeah that's covered in the article, but only applies to subdivisions of more than 5 houses. So the builders build larger anyway with ownership hidden in a shell game of LLCs to get around the regulation and build without that 100 year water supply.
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