Car Quality Is Slipping • Hacker News Board

Re: Car Quality Is Slipping

#21

Post by mywittyname » Tue, Jul 05, 2022, 4:18 PM UTC

causi wrote: post #5

Electric vehicles (EVs) performed worse than gas-powered models in the study. EVs had 240 complaints per 100 vehicles on average, plug-in hybrid vehicles had 239, and gas-powered cars averaged 175. This never fails to baffle me. An ICE vehicle has a hundred times as many moving parts as a BeV. Just how much lower is the BeV production quality to give them more problems?

ICE vehicles have 100 years of improvement and refinement behind them. A significant number of ICE power trains in current vehicles have direct lineages going back to the 90s and total production numbers in the 100s of millions.

The limiting factor in the durability of an ICE is maintenance. Friction will eventually wear an engine beyond operating tolerances. But proper maintenance can keep an ICE going for a very long time. 100 years is totally possible so long as wear components are properly greased and rubbers are replaced every 10 or so years.

Re: Car Quality Is Slipping

#22

Post by lotsofpulp » Tue, Jul 05, 2022, 4:18 PM UTC

ramesh31 wrote: post #18

abfan1127 wrote: post #7

Initial quality always seemed like a silly measure to me. I'm more interested in total cost of ownership through 150k-200k miles. Own a GM for 90 days vs own a GM for 15 years and you'll have vastly different results, IMO.

Reality is that no one owns a car for 200k miles anymore. There are of course outliers, but the vast majority of people are either buying/leasing/trading every 3-4 years, or are at the opposite end of the spectrum buying whatever cheap rust heap they can keep running.

Almost everyone derives value from existing cars either by using or selling it.

I also would need concrete data to believe most people are swapping cars willy nilly. Based on income/wealth statistics, most Americans most certainly cannot afford to.

Re: Car Quality Is Slipping

#23

Post by iwanttocomment » Tue, Jul 05, 2022, 4:18 PM UTC

abfan1127 wrote: post #7

Initial quality always seemed like a silly measure to me. I'm more interested in total cost of ownership through 150k-200k miles. Own a GM for 90 days vs own a GM for 15 years and you'll have vastly different results, IMO.

Back in the 70s and 80s, it was common to buy a new American car with a double-digit number of serious defects right off the line; Japanese cars had their initial success in the States when they were generally fine at purchase. Overall quality has been greatly improved since those terrible days, but it's still a useful measure. Nobody wants to have to keep taking their brand new car into the shop.

Also, if you wait until you get any substantial real-world numbers on TCO from owners at 150k-200k miles - collecting several years of data - any given car will likely have been redesigned and have a different quality profile. You can extrapolate by manufacturer, but given the extended timeframe it isn't all that helpful - or even more helpful than initial quality - when buying a brand new car.

Re: Car Quality Is Slipping

#24

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Jul 05, 2022, 4:18 PM UTC

ramesh31 wrote: post #18

abfan1127 wrote: post #7

Initial quality always seemed like a silly measure to me. I'm more interested in total cost of ownership through 150k-200k miles. Own a GM for 90 days vs own a GM for 15 years and you'll have vastly different results, IMO.

Reality is that no one owns a car for 200k miles anymore. There are of course outliers, but the vast majority of people are either buying/leasing/trading every 3-4 years, or are at the opposite end of the spectrum buying whatever cheap rust heap they can keep running.

[deleted]

Re: Car Quality Is Slipping

#25

Post by guhidalg » Tue, Jul 05, 2022, 4:18 PM UTC

midislack wrote: post #2

Toyota post tsunami has gone into the trash, can confirm. Keep your < 2012's.

You know, just because Toyota is a Japanese company does not mean that all Toyota cars are made in Japan. https://www.novatotoyota.com/blog/what-toyota-vehicles-are-m...

How exactly did the tsunami affect Toyotas manufactured in the US pray tell?

Re: Car Quality Is Slipping

#26

Post by nradov » Tue, Jul 05, 2022, 4:19 PM UTC

abfan1127 wrote: post #7

Initial quality always seemed like a silly measure to me. I'm more interested in total cost of ownership through 150k-200k miles. Own a GM for 90 days vs own a GM for 15 years and you'll have vastly different results, IMO.

Initial quality isn't silly. It makes a difference in the ownership experience. If you keep having to take your new car in for service it's a huge hassle, even when the manufacturer fixes it under warranty and gives you a loaner to drive. Considering the average new car price is over $40K now, the lack of attention to quality is just sad. It's pure laziness and incompetence, but I guess consumers are willing to put up with it so nothing will improve.

Re: Car Quality Is Slipping

#27

Post by sokoloff » Tue, Jul 05, 2022, 4:20 PM UTC

ramesh31 wrote: post #18

abfan1127 wrote: post #7

Initial quality always seemed like a silly measure to me. I'm more interested in total cost of ownership through 150k-200k miles. Own a GM for 90 days vs own a GM for 15 years and you'll have vastly different results, IMO.

Reality is that no one owns a car for 200k miles anymore. There are of course outliers, but the vast majority of people are either buying/leasing/trading every 3-4 years, or are at the opposite end of the spectrum buying whatever cheap rust heap they can keep running.

What difference does it make if 1 or 4 owners take the car to 200K miles? The cheaper-to-run car is likely to be worth more to the initial and subsequent resales.

Re: Car Quality Is Slipping

#28

Post by dispatchapp » Tue, Jul 05, 2022, 4:20 PM UTC

My 2014 WRX has had a myriad of reliability issues. Bone stock, always maintained, and just constantly going into the dealer for issues. Thankfully I have an extended warranty.

Issue #1: 19k miles - OEM turbo blows. Subaru FSE determines a bearing seized prematurely. Turbo replaced.

Issue #2: 23k miles - Replacement turbo starts making more sounds mimicking the same noises the OEM turbo made before it blew. Subaru replaces it again.

Issue #3: 28k miles - Third turbo goes bad yet again. I cause more of a ruckus at Subaru and they call in an another FSE. FSE determined that all of the turbos blowing caused metal shards to shoot into the engine and that's why the turbos keep blowing. They ended up replacing the long block as well.

Issue #4: 8/1/16 - Car goes back after I keep hearing a rasp. Subaru determined that it wasn't the exhaust shields as suspected and called in an yet another FSE. The FSE determined that the clutch that went bad prematurely. Other misc issues they addressed during this visit:

- Rear seat driver side window has some sort of regulator issue/noise - Plastic bezel on the radio is peeling - Creaky clutch and brake pedal

Issue #5: Burning odor from transmission. Subaru says its not an issue.

Issue #6: Yesterday, driving home from Burlington VT to NYC. Reverse gear fails. No reverse option. Third gear also pops out.

It's one of the most fun cars I have ever driven but Jesus it's a nightmare to go to Subaru non-stop. I am contemplating getting a 2022 WRX and attributing all the issues to it being a Lemon...

Re: Car Quality Is Slipping

#29

Post by wallaBBB » Tue, Jul 05, 2022, 4:20 PM UTC

These type of articles that do not breakdown the type of complaints are worthless. The trend of increased complaints has been present for a few years now, but when broken down the increase comes vastly from infotainment and SW related issues. And it is expected, SW complexity in the infotainment part has skyrocketed and automotive companies are in their core HW companies, not SW companies and are slow to adapt. I wouldn't consider infotainment complaints to be a sign of drop in reliability.

Re: Car Quality Is Slipping

#30

Post by HPsquared » Tue, Jul 05, 2022, 4:20 PM UTC

ramesh31 wrote: post #18

abfan1127 wrote: post #7

Initial quality always seemed like a silly measure to me. I'm more interested in total cost of ownership through 150k-200k miles. Own a GM for 90 days vs own a GM for 15 years and you'll have vastly different results, IMO.

Reality is that no one owns a car for 200k miles anymore. There are of course outliers, but the vast majority of people are either buying/leasing/trading every 3-4 years, or are at the opposite end of the spectrum buying whatever cheap rust heap they can keep running.

Surely there are also a lot in the middle. Otherwise where do all the new cars go, and where do the rust heaps come from?