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Linus Torvalds: Software and Process Patents Don't Make Sense

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Re: Linus Torvalds: Software and Process Patents Don't Make Sense

#41
post #8

Linus: "I don't actually know the details. I mean Java I really don't care about. What a horrible language. What a horrible VM. So, I am like whatever, you are barking about all this crap, go away. I don't care." My respect for Linus just grew 10-fold!

"My respect for Linus just grew 10-fold!" Why? He just bashes Java using strong language and not providing any arguments. This could get my respect if Java were some kind of sacred cow that nobody dares criticize. This is not the case AFAIK.

I accept that this quote doesn't give his reasons. However, I have to agree with him. My reasons are that Java is slow and bloated.

Re: Linus Torvalds: Software and Process Patents Don't Make Sense

#42

> I think patents probably work better in certain areas than they do in ours. Software patents? No. Process patents? No. They just don't make sense. Only if you ignore the fact that congress is composed of lawyers, who have a large self-interest in preserving the current Byzantine system.

How many patent lawyers are there in Congress? I'd be surprised if it's more than one or two.

I do not think a lawyer have to specialize in patents specifically to support byzantine laws. I think it is the willingness and propensity to accept laws and regulations for everything.

Re: Linus Torvalds: Software and Process Patents Don't Make Sense

#43

> I think patents probably work better in certain areas than they do in ours. Software patents? No. Process patents? No. They just don't make sense. Only if you ignore the fact that congress is composed of lawyers, who have a large self-interest in preserving the current Byzantine system.

Top (when I wrote this) comment on this thread is, on close read, virtually content free.

Re: Linus Torvalds: Software and Process Patents Don't Make Sense

#44
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How many patent lawyers are there in Congress? I'd be surprised if it's more than one or two.

I do not think a lawyer have to specialize in patents specifically to support byzantine laws. I think it is the willingness and propensity to accept laws and regulations for everything.

Have you ever talked to an IP lawyer? It is surprisingly difficult to become one. You responded to an interesting point with more superficial innuendo about congress.

Re: Linus Torvalds: Software and Process Patents Don't Make Sense

#45
post #9

Well I didn't know that US patent cases can be presented to a jury. I don't envy them on that considering the language these things are written in. I wonder how many hours are spent 'training' the jury in the legalese required to understand the case? And this would have to be done for each and every case that has a jury!

Patent claims constructions are carefully written so as to present a decision tree to the court. The court translates the language into that decision tree worded for laypersons; expert witnesses for both sides make arguments at each node of the tree.

A good, simple starting point:

http://www.bpmlegal.com/howtopat5.html

Re: Linus Torvalds: Software and Process Patents Don't Make Sense

#46
post #9

Well I didn't know that US patent cases can be presented to a jury. I don't envy them on that considering the language these things are written in. I wonder how many hours are spent 'training' the jury in the legalese required to understand the case? And this would have to be done for each and every case that has a jury!

It's the judge's responsibility to explain the legal basis to the jury in the form of jury instructions. These will usually be created in consultation with the lawyers for both sides. Trial by jury is the reason why East Texas is the court of choice for patent claims. For some reason jury verdicts there seem to be biased towards the patent holder. I should also note that being a juror in a federal case sucks. The fir…

As 'tzs pointed out a few weeks ago, the East Texas issue is something that the America Invents Act (the recent patent reform bill) actually addresses:

http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3006925

Re: Linus Torvalds: Software and Process Patents Don't Make Sense

#47
post #13

Everything we create and think of is based on experiences (sight, smell, feelings....). Therefore it's very strange to have patents. A patent is just a smart mix of things that already exist. Software is always mixing existing things using existing tools. So it's very difficult to have a 'smartness' value for a software patent. Fortunately Harrison Gray Dyar and Samuel Morse don't have all rights for binary code...

The purpose of a patent isn't to grant ownership over mixes of things that already exist. The purpose of a patent is to incentivize full disclosure of novel ideas, ideas that otherwise would be locked up as trade secrets, by trading disclosure for time-limited monopolies over those ideas.

The patent system isn't a prize we give to people for innovating. It's one of the ways we pay people to document and publish their inventions.

Irony: Samuel Morse did in fact vigorously patent his inventions.

Re: Linus Torvalds: Software and Process Patents Don't Make Sense

#48
"... and that's the reason you have to have a patent lawyer because the language makes no sense. In US it’s technically English but it’s not really English. It’s like using English words but there are different meanings to them. There is a whole different set of rules about what things mean when they do a patent application."

Well guess what - that is not unusual when everyday words migrate into a technical area and the law is such an area. To complain about words having specialist meanings in a specific subject area strikes me as naive.

Re: Linus Torvalds: Software and Process Patents Don't Make Sense

#49

Totally agreed. Compete on products or results, not on legal process

Wouldn't that be nice. Now consider the case of a pharmaceutical company that has to spend hundreds of millions of dollars to develop a new drug and get it past FDA. If there is no IP protection would you as the CEO of this company spend that kind of money on innovating when the resultant drug could be copied a week after it appears on the shelves? In this case you would be competing on product alright - exactly the same product. But the copier has had no R&D cost and can undercut you and put your offering out of business.

The issue is often framed in terms of all patents being bad, or all software patents being bad but to anyone to gives the matter more than the kind of superficial thought stemming from ideology the reality is rather more complicated.

Re: Linus Torvalds: Software and Process Patents Don't Make Sense

#50
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Patents are about ideas and inventions which must be "novel", "useful" and "non-obvious". A smart mix of things that already exist would not be patentable unless it is "inventive", "novel", useful" and "non-obvious". If it is all of these, it should be patentable whether it is software or hardware. (Note however that laws of physics, mathematical formulas, etc. are not patentable.) What's broken is not the concept of…

> What needs fixing is the implementation, not the idea itself of the patents, be it software or hardware. There are two issues here: 1. You assume the implementation is fixable, I have seen no sign of it so far, especially for software and method patents. Even more so as the number of patents applications is skyrocketing worldwide and intellectual propriety offices have neither the resources nor the qualifications (…

When reinvention is too common, and converging solutions to a given problem can be readily devised, it's not a patentable idea by the constraint of "non-obviousness". But such patent applications readily get granted still. That does not mean the concept (including non-obviousness requirement) is flawed. I agree that it may be impractical given that non-obviousness is not measurable.

The duration of the patent in my terminology is also an implementation issue and not a conceptual issue. I agree that in today's world, twenty years are a bit too long. Or rather inventions that can be so readily made should be failed on "non-obviousness" basis again.

The real issue is this: Not the patent system, but the companies are interested in protecting "everything" they do. The law does not provide protection for everything. Copyright applies to specific material or implementations while patents apply when those three constraints are met. There are clearly things that are not protected by either and they should remain as such. The issue is that they don't (and both companies and patents office are responsible for this).

To fix (the implementation), the bar on non-obviousness, novelty, etc. as well as the duration of the patent needs to be made commensurate with the reality, taking into account the low investment costs and timeline that you mention. Maybe even by having varied durations for different domains just as the non-obviousness bar is different for different domains just by virtue of being unmeasurable.

All in all, I have not heard any real reason why software patents should be distinguished from other patents, other than possibly having the bar on them and duration adjusted accordingly.

Edit: Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer.

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