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It's quite hard to lose a Duolingo streak

leejo.github.io

131–140 of 231 posts

Re: It's quite hard to lose a Duolingo streak

#131
Duolingo must have psychologists on staff who realized the insidious side of the "keeping the streak".

One of the happiest days in my life was the day after losing the streak on 750words a few years ago.

I had a 500+ day streak going but it had not built into an effortless habit (like a cold shower).

Surest way to misery is feeling forced into doing something yet not getting enjoyment nor showing any improvement.

I am reasonably sure if I had tried to not break the streak in say doing standup ala Seinfeld the results would have been similarly dismal.

On the same note I quit Duolingo when I realized that the modicum of German I was learning was quickly overtaken by my teenage daughter. She was in a very average German class spending less time on lessons.

Re: It's quite hard to lose a Duolingo streak

#133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That goes to show how easily humans are manipulated. When I read these comments it all sounds incredibly pointless. People cherishing a counter they are allowed to increase.

The problem is progress is slow and hard to measure. Streaks are something you can measure and consistent study makes a different after many hours of work. That said, if you want to learn a language you need to study a lot. Complete everything Duolingo can in a few months and then find better courses of study to learn after that. You should never in my opinion have more than a 6 month streak.

How is "used app every day" better than "did X exercises per week" or per month?

Re: It's quite hard to lose a Duolingo streak

#134
post #40

Losing a Sojourner medal streak in Ingress (due to being busy due to my own wedding!) made me quit playing the game regularly. Streaks can be effective in keeping the user returning, but once it's broken it can be a perfect moment for the user to churn. Hence, I can understand how the Duolingo devs made the streak less fragile than it would initially appear, but doing so (and having the cover blown) also makes return…

I had this problem with the Books app on my iPad. I had a nearly 300 day streak going of reading at least 5 minutes every day (and I have not been an avid reader throughout most of my life.) The books app would keep track of the streak at the bottom of the screen in your library view. Then one night I started reading at 11:57 PM, and by the time I was reading for 5 minutes, it was 12:02AM and I technically missed a d…

Change the date on the phone, and read again.

Re: It's quite hard to lose a Duolingo streak

#135
post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For these reasons, I think the most realistic answer for the best way to learn language is private tutoring. For people who have a specific need to learn a language this is of course true. Or even for people who have an amount of time and effort they are willing to dedicate to that end. The thing is, though - I’m very unlikely to invest in private tutoring in order to learn a language speculatively. The time and fina…

> I’d estimate that I’ve spent maybe 200 hours over three years with it, which has taken me from not knowing a language to being conversationally fluent in that language This really jumped out at me. 200 hours to get to conversationally fluent is very, very fast: in the CEFR framework, with proper tuition, this generally gets one to about A2 ("elementary"). How closely related is the language you're studying to the l…

I'd bet that the time spent is being underestimated. Duolingo doesn't track time and works in "lessons" containing a series of something like 15 questions each. You can do one of those in less than 10 minutes, but if you do two, you're over 10 minutes. There's no option to do less than a lesson (even "practice" is arranged as if it were a lesson), and bailing in the middle wouldn't be recorded as anything.

Re: It's quite hard to lose a Duolingo streak

#136
I've been able to "hack" around the streak loss demotivation by tracking my language learning practice outside of the Duolingo streak measure. I use an app called "Habit" to track good habits I want to follow, such as exercise, meditation and language learning. It has the ability to set up weekly goals such as 3 days out of 7 or monthly goals and displays progress and various stats.

That flexibility has helped me track my streak outside of the gamified experience that is Duolingo. It has helped me stay motivated based on my personal goals and not be artificially motivated by the whims of the App developer & PM who are focused on driving goals such as DAU/engagement and monetization.

Re: It's quite hard to lose a Duolingo streak

#137
post #2

What are some good alternatives to Duolingo with fewer dark patterns? (And don't suggest traditional methods, I am very much not against them, I am just curious about apps and such.)

Babbel is the least hated of this kind of app among my linguist friends. Pimsleur is highly regarded by phonologists. I get frustrated by almost all of these tools. In particular, I feel like Duolingo is much less useful if you already know another language, and is almost useless as a way to brush up on a language you already know (my boyfriend has been doing Russian Duolingo for three months and his vocabulary is ju…

As an aside, in Duolingo you can click on the checkpoint icon, on the main lesson page, to take a test to advance to the next large group of lessons. If you're not learning anything in a series of lessons, you don't need to grind through them all. Similarly, there is also a sort of placement test each time you start a new language that helps adjust to your preexisting knowledge.

You should never be in a scenario where you're using Duolingo without learning anything new unless it's intentional or you've mastered the entire selection of lessons they offer.

Re: It's quite hard to lose a Duolingo streak

#138
post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I’d estimate that I’ve spent maybe 200 hours over three years with it, which has taken me from not knowing a language to being conversationally fluent in that language This really jumped out at me. 200 hours to get to conversationally fluent is very, very fast: in the CEFR framework, with proper tuition, this generally gets one to about A2 ("elementary"). How closely related is the language you're studying to the l…

I'd bet that the time spent is being underestimated. Duolingo doesn't track time and works in "lessons" containing a series of something like 15 questions each. You can do one of those in less than 10 minutes, but if you do two, you're over 10 minutes. There's no option to do less than a lesson (even "practice" is arranged as if it were a lesson), and bailing in the middle wouldn't be recorded as anything.

That could well be the case. But I suspect that there's also a great deal of variability in what people mean when they say "conversationally fluent". For example, I completed the entire French tree in Duolingo a few years back, and would consider myself nowhere near "conversationally fluent".

Re: It's quite hard to lose a Duolingo streak

#139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> even after all that I can't speak a single proper sentence now apart from the basic je m'appelle stuff This is the real problem with Duolingo: it doesn't actually teach you to communicate in the language. Rote memorization and communication are two different things, and Duolingo does very little aside from drilling memorization. Streaks and gamification don't contribute to communication, which has its own system of…

Duolingo can absolutely get you reading and listening. Which is let's say half the battle. I think it's too dramatic to say it's a "real problem" with it! Anybody who intends to become fluent in a language is going to need to practice actually speaking and writing.

Every tool has its use, but sometimes that use is pretty limited. I don't know if it's a "real problem" that Duolingo focuses on this stuff so much, but honestly, it's probably more about Duolingo's engagement numbers than it is about learning.

Is rote memorization essential to language learning? Absolutely. Should it be the focus of your learning after the very early stages? Probably not. It's just something you do, all the time. Memorize all you like, but true acquisition only comes after you've used your words in real conversation / listening, so that's should probably be where you place your effort. But that doesn't help Duolingo.

In the Japanese learning community, the seduction of this kind of rote, mechanistic, "streak-y" learning has been a trap for a long time -- so much so that there's a popular methodology that has people spend a great deal of time "memorizing kanji". It's appealing because Japanese has a big alphabet of complex characters and the methodology suggests that you can turn learning into a simple memorization exercise with discreet, measurable progress. The problem is, it's pretty much orthogonal to the act of speaking (or reading, or listening to) the language. Learn 2000 kanji and you might gain some ability to infer the meanings of words, but you're still essentially illiterate. The same thing applies at the level of words and sentences -- I have lots of words that I "know" on flashcards, but aren't available to me in actual conversation.

People get absolutely addicted to this stuff, spend years on it while gaining no meaningful level of language skill, then get frustrated and quit. The tragedy is that most people could put in a fraction of that time engaged in listening and speaking with a simple vocabulary, and end up in the kind of virtuous cycle that actually leads somewhere.

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