Earlier quoted context omitted.
The honest answer is because that’s what insurer negotiation had led to with hospitals having using their negotiating position. If you’re a hospital in an area with standalone MRI clinics the negotiation pressure is high, insurers can say “ill send patients elsewhere”, so you give on price, maybe below cost. But that same hospital is the only cath lab in 100 miles. Great! We’ll just tell the insurer “we’re charging 3…
Hospitals don't let you obtain imaging elsewhere. They force you to use their imaging services--full stop.
How much health insurers pay for almost everything is about to go public
351–360 of 370 posts
Re: How much health insurers pay for almost everything is about to go public
#352Earlier quoted context omitted.
Hospital is free to determine their prices, but they cannot give steep discounts to one channel of sales over other. They have to be consistent. Healthcare pricing should be based on cost+plus models for the hospitals rather than on value driven approach you see every else in any sales. We are not questioning their costs whatever they maybe, if the costs logically remain roughly same no matter how a particular patien…
> Healthcare pricing should be based on cost+plus models Cost plus models provide a perverse incentive to increase costs, as 5% of $2 is more than 5% of $1.
If you are locked into "choosing" the one in-network service provider in your area who can price very differently for your insurance than for others yes there is room for perverse incentives as is today.
If you and I can choose freely from any service provider in the area and everyone has to price the same way( i.e. not change basis who the customer is) then they will have to be competitive, people are very price sensitive and will tend to move towards the ones which are cheaper.
See how the airlines all slowly have moved towards the low-cost models: more economy/less first class even if they were full service. Sure you will have some Frontier/Spirit type organizations eventually but if they get the job done(Moving you from A to B) at lowest price then that is all that matters[3], similarly if a hospital is no-frills and gets your cataract operation[2] or do regular checkup faster and cheaper they will do so and plenty of people benefit from that.
Force hospitals to compete, not lock into monopolistic preferential contracts with some buyers and force users to now be exhorted crazy premiums to avoid the possibility being charged even more. Price regulation does not mean government fixes the prices, it should just mean that service provider have to charge the same for anyone without knowing their source (which insurance plan/company or self-funded and income level).
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[1] While there are some cases where two hospitals / doctors are not equivalent and cannot be compared, vast majority of care is fungible, i.e. you can replace one hospital / doctor with another without material impact to outcome of care.
[2] I have seen this myself work https://www.gatesfoundation.org/Ideas/Speeches/2008/05/willi... it is like assembly line, brutal efficiency.
[3] This assumes robust regulation, which we already have in healthcare, probably more so than required, there is no systemic regulatory oversight problems in the industry today.
Re: How much health insurers pay for almost everything is about to go public
#353Earlier quoted context omitted.
Hospital is free to determine their prices, but they cannot give steep discounts to one channel of sales over other. They have to be consistent. Healthcare pricing should be based on cost+plus models for the hospitals rather than on value driven approach you see every else in any sales. We are not questioning their costs whatever they maybe, if the costs logically remain roughly same no matter how a particular patien…
But what's the cost? Complex hospital services have so many inputs that it's impossible to do cost accounting in a completely consistent way. Hospitals literally don't know what their costs are.
If your claim is hospital management and administration does not have a clue like a early stage start-up founder on VC money what their per-unit costs are, I am not sure you have negotiated a bill between insurance, hospital and you in the U.S, it is laughably false.
Even doctors are acutely aware of how tagging their services under which SKU is covered how by which insurance and by how much, and also how much they make from the hospital for that as well.
Re: How much health insurers pay for almost everything is about to go public
#354I'm one of the co-founders of Turquoise Health, mentioned in the article here. We've been downloading and parsing this data all day. It's a really big deal in the industry that the prices that insurance companies pay doctors are now being shared publicly. It will have all sorts of positive impacts over time, hopefully making rate negotiations more consistent and fair between different insurance plans. Right now, 10x…
My dentist dropped my insurer (Delta Dental) because they claim they did not cover things as reliably as they should. When I saw a comparison bill of what it would be in and out of network for a recent service it looked like the 60% increase in price was purely because my dentist billed more, which they then claimed is due to the discount The insurer provides. None of this makes sense to me. How can I leverage this n…
Re: How much health insurers pay for almost everything is about to go public
#355Earlier quoted context omitted.
You are totally wrong. Quackery exists all over the EU and other socialized systems. The idea that you can fix issues by drinking water or vinegar instead of going through Chemo or surgery has always been an easy sell to the gullible.
So you're saying my initial interpretation is the correct one? "Doctors hate this" because it's fake and leads people to false hope and ineffective outcomes? But I'm still confused. Other than as an arresting "attention grab" (as another commenter says) why would someone advertise a product by denigrating it, even semi-ironically?
The scam only works if you isolate the gullible from their doctor.
Re: How much health insurers pay for almost everything is about to go public
#356Wait till you find out how much it actually costs doctors/providers to render some of these services! Do you like 90% margins? Doctors sure do! :)
Doctors and Surgeons in America are incredibly highly paid. People love hating insurance and drug companies but the cost of people is driving much of the price.
Physician salaries represent a small fraction of overall healthcare costs. Nursing/allied health salaries make up the bulk of any hospital’s costs and are often bloated due to powerful unions physicians don’t have.
For comparison, Canadian physicians are on average better compensated than American physicians.
I practice radiology, a specialty often considered “overpaid” yet my compensation is only high because of the amount of advanced studies ordered in modern medicine. On a per study basis I get paid less and less every year yet scans are getting more and more complex (many studies on this). In addition the standard to which I am held to keeps rising and I spend a significant amount of time doing unpaid QA, following up on my reports to improve my ROC, and at least a few hours every week reading the latest publications in my sub specialty.
The average diagnostic radiologist in the USA is grossing around 400k (no retirement fund, pension, and commonly no benefits).
What is reasonable compensation in your opinion for someone who has finished 10+ years of post-undergrad training and accepts significant liability for every report (a radiologist at HMS missed a lung nodule on an X-ray and lost 16 million in court)?
Re: How much health insurers pay for almost everything is about to go public
#357Re: How much health insurers pay for almost everything is about to go public
#358Earlier quoted context omitted.
My dentist dropped my insurer (Delta Dental) because they claim they did not cover things as reliably as they should. When I saw a comparison bill of what it would be in and out of network for a recent service it looked like the 60% increase in price was purely because my dentist billed more, which they then claimed is due to the discount The insurer provides. None of this makes sense to me. How can I leverage this n…
People keep complaining government is too complicated and too expensive and bafoonish, yet they don't see how corporations are no different except their priority is maximizing profit not providing cost-efficient quality.
It's not so easy to have a competitive marketplace for government services (though I would not be surprised if the US saw the emergence of private police forces now, for those parents who actually want police officers that have a duty to protect their kids...)
Re: How much health insurers pay for almost everything is about to go public
#359Earlier quoted context omitted.
People keep complaining government is too complicated and too expensive and bafoonish, yet they don't see how corporations are no different except their priority is maximizing profit not providing cost-efficient quality.
The point (in theory) is that in efficient markets you can choose between different companies offering a product/service and that competition drives down prices / costs. The healthcare market in the US is very much not a competitive market (in part due to transparency issues which this is trying to address, in part because of the perverse incentives in the health insurance system). It's not so easy to have a competit…
We have regulatory capture, legislation is written by think tanks like ALECS at the behest of corporations to benefit corporations thereby compounding the problem.
We need actual regulation or a reorganization of corporation ownership. Reorganizing corporations to be owned by the people who work for them rather than shareholders would shift incentives.
Re: How much health insurers pay for almost everything is about to go public
#360Earlier quoted context omitted.
Sorry, but the only thing that will help is Medicare for all. We need to get rid of insurance companies completely.
Should Europe get rid of their insurers too?
if there were too few of those i would probably also object.
idk about the situation where there are no private companies involved at all and the government takes over healthcare top to bottom because on the one hand i see a massive problem with for profit healtcare as it is and on the other hand i can see how incentives would wither away if there is no drive for efficiency at all.