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What do lawyers do?

nihal.bearblog.dev

101–110 of 156 posts

Re: What do lawyers do?

#101
post #38

Great analysis. Even though we see the warts all of the time, I'm so incredibly impressed by "law," and I didn't get to this point until I was well out of law school. Why I'm impressed is how well the law holds itself together in the face of the massive weight of influences that have every reason in the world to try to corrupt it. It's just all too easy to speculate (or read historically) how easy it is to corrupt th…

Great point. The difficult thing, on this forum, is it is weighted towards younger and very accomplished computer scientists. Sometimes the impulse, when seeing complexity that's hard to understand (medicine, regulation, law), is to be frustrated and dismiss it. Law is amazing and much older than programming, and one of the underrated human inventions. The fact we aren't constantly killing each other over small dispu…

> Law is amazing and much older than programming...

And boy does it show. Recent events have me examining The Supreme Court and American law from a programmers perspective. And let me tell you, there are warts:

The Supreme Court is comprised of lifelong appointees, mostly in the dwindling twilight of their cognitive ability. This made sense when we didn't understand cognitive decline. Now with the rapid pace of technological progress, it's a joke. To be plain, I don't know of any ICs their age able to keep up. They move up or age out.

The whole legal rationalist ideal that you can start from the base principles of the constitution and reason up indefinitely is ridiculous. We programmers have all sorts of tooling to navigate code bases larger than we can readily keep in our heads. That tooling regularly fails us. The best programmers I've worked with regularly hit compiler errors. This all happens in the sterile environment of code. Why should I believe that judges, who can't even agree on whether to interpret the constitution in a modern lens or hold to its writers original intentions, are less susceptible to irrationality or bias or plain incompetence with far less tooling? A lot of modern psychology suggests they can't.

For all you programmers out there, read a handful of legal documents. As far as complex logical reasoning goes, it comes off like a kid building a treehouse compared to code for even simple web apps. The legal profession needs to recognize its limitations and catch up with the times. Here are some ideas:

- Rigorous, regular cognitive testing after for all licensed legal professionals older than 45. You have to pass a test to drive in old age, but you can sentence someone to life in prison no problem.

- Term limits for everyone, everywhere.

- In certain cases, law should embrace statistics. Certain cases aren't suited for proposition-like rule based reasoning. Law needs a larger tool chest that can make argument based not on precedent, but on what exists right now in American society.

Re: What do lawyers do?

#103
In my experience as a lawyer at tech companies:

-bad lawyers creative an antagonist relationship with their internal colleagues in sales and contribute to distrust

-good lawyers spend a lot of time learning stuff about their clients (engineering, corp dev, sales, whoever) that seems "tangential" to the fundamental legal issues at first blush

-bad lawyers think they know the answer to legal questions facing the company

-good lawyers believe no one knows the answers but by combining their knowledge with that of their clients they can arrive at optimal answers

Re: What do lawyers do?

#104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Yes, and we did. On several instances, we had silly problems like the accountant going to vacation right before tax deadline, other frustrations like communication problems. are you saying a small firm's staff took a vacation during tax season? thats very strange. i have had partners in our firm delay their medical procedures til the end of tax season specifically because small offices run a tight ship and loss of a…

> are you saying a small firm's staff took a vacation during tax season? thats very strange. The company is an LLC equivalent in Algeria. There's no tax season. Tax forms must be submitted and paid before the 20th of every month. Social security before the 30th of every month, or quarterly if the company has fewer than nine employees. Employees don't do their own taxes; instead, the company withholds the taxes/social…

you just explained indian indirect taxes. "tax season" in india is a yearly affair so that is what i wrote.

the indirect taxes, well, there are 2 due dates in a month. 10th and 20th. salary taxes are called "tds" or "tax deduction at source". same, monthly and a quarterly return.

we do have those "network firms" , actually the "big 4" in india is a network of firms who have taken up a name, there isnt any actual EY office, just a name of a network.

>And yes, the accountant was unreachable before doing our taxes.

irresponsible of them. we literally manage our outside-office life based on the 10th and 20th of the month so, 1-10 and 17-20 are no normal holiday days. employees are free to take a leave on 11th-15th or 21-28th of every month but the rest of the days, unless there is a serious emergency, leaves are not entertained much.

a small office usually does not have a tonne of clients (otherwise they would be big) so every client is important. Now why would this particular accountant would go on a vacation on "important dates", i dont know. i can safely say i have never done that and neither have my peers

Re: What do lawyers do?

#106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

and "the gloves are off". If the entire government just spent 2 years justifying the coerced vaccination of the masses - all thought bodily autonomy thrown out for the greater good? Sure the Rightwingers are happy to play that game as well.

IMO comparing vaccination to women's bodily autonomy is a bad faith argument. Vaccination is about protecting society -- the protection it offers individuals who get the vaccine is incidental. Anti-abortion folks have a stronger argument, IMO, by focusing on the liberty of the unborn child. Both sides refuse to give up ground, however, for political reasons. The logical conclusion is that there is a point somewhere o…

> to qualify for rights of its own that can be balanced against the rights of the mother.

I'm not sure how much I agree. If you were grafted to my arm and that was keeping you alive... I would think it would be within my rights to remove you.

Re: What do lawyers do?

#107
post #30
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My point is that the vast majority of what lawyers do has nothing to do with judges. It has to do with drafting contracts and interpreting legislation and legal precedent. Talking about good lawyers sometimes being able to communicate and coming prepared is limited to a small subset of barrister work. [edit for clarity]: I overstated the first sentence. I should have said that the vast majority of what lawyers do doe…

If people would never need to go before a judge for any type of action, there would be no need for a lawyer. A contract, when presumably violated, gets adjudicated by a judge. Everything a lawyer does is judge centric. Ultimately, the law is meaningless without a judge to decide its meaning.

I never said never. The point was that in the grand scheme of a legal career, it is exceedingly rare except for litigators or barristers, who are a minority of lawyers.

Re: What do lawyers do?

#108
post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This isn't a "great lawyer" play . It's the standard play for any unscrupulous party engaged against a party with limited funds. Even if a case is pretty open and shut, you can tie it up for years in motions for little benefit. This isn't hard at all.It's hard to be on the other side and respond to it. A great lawyer can achieve a settlement against a party like this without the need to throw sacks of cash onto a fir…

"A great lawyer can achieve a settlement against a party like this without the need to throw sacks of cash onto a firepit." A lawyer, good or bad, has no control whether the other party settles.

This is incorrect in my experience. My company was sued by LinkedIn about a year after receiving a $1MM seed round. We were low on money with about $250K left and raising when the suit hit.

This is a game of leverage.

Lawyers are tools that have to be used effectively to apply leverage. Like any tool, good ones make a big difference.

At the time LI was worth about $30 Billion, we had $250K. We convinced LinkedIn to settle after about 4 months in SF court for a nominal amount.

Good/ethical lawyers were critical along with significant creativity from our side on how to use them.

We survived, raised a round and the company is still kicking.

Re: What do lawyers do?

#109
post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A great lawyer can also cause the other side to spend a ton of money responding discovery requests and motions. In fact, a common strategy is to get the other side's legal bill to be so high they eventually give up. I've seen this kill multiple startups who end up in disputes with large tech companies. Even if the startup is 100% in the right, the large co can tie them up in a lawsuit for years and VCs won't back a s…

This isn't a "great lawyer" play . It's the standard play for any unscrupulous party engaged against a party with limited funds. Even if a case is pretty open and shut, you can tie it up for years in motions for little benefit. This isn't hard at all.It's hard to be on the other side and respond to it. A great lawyer can achieve a settlement against a party like this without the need to throw sacks of cash onto a fir…

Agreed. This is exactly my experience.

Re: What do lawyers do?

#110
post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This isn't a "great lawyer" play . It's the standard play for any unscrupulous party engaged against a party with limited funds. Even if a case is pretty open and shut, you can tie it up for years in motions for little benefit. This isn't hard at all.It's hard to be on the other side and respond to it. A great lawyer can achieve a settlement against a party like this without the need to throw sacks of cash onto a fir…

"A great lawyer can achieve a settlement against a party like this without the need to throw sacks of cash onto a firepit." A lawyer, good or bad, has no control whether the other party settles.

In the same way that a parent has no control over whether their child goes to sleep.
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