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How much health insurers pay for almost everything is about to go public

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Re: How much health insurers pay for almost everything is about to go public

#331
post #297

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“Right now, 10x differences in prices paid for the same healthcare service from the same doctor between insurance plans is not uncommon.” Makes me wonder how things got to this point. How can a business perform any planning if they sell their services with such big differences between prices charged to customers?

The honest answer is because that’s what insurer negotiation had led to with hospitals having using their negotiating position. If you’re a hospital in an area with standalone MRI clinics the negotiation pressure is high, insurers can say “ill send patients elsewhere”, so you give on price, maybe below cost. But that same hospital is the only cath lab in 100 miles. Great! We’ll just tell the insurer “we’re charging 3…

Hospitals don't let you obtain imaging elsewhere. They force you to use their imaging services--full stop.

Re: How much health insurers pay for almost everything is about to go public

#332

I work in healthcare. Here is an exchange I had with a major hospital about standard surgery (one of those deemed "Shoppable services") earlier this year. This exchange was possible after I was able to get an email recipient, following a 30min conversation. >>>> Hello! I was told by the very helpful Ms. XXX, that you would be able to provide patient responsibility amount , related to CPT codes for XXX procedure. I am…

This sounds about right. I've worked in the healthcare tech world for about 5 years on both sides (for providers and payors). I totally empathize with how annoying it is that essentially no one processes estimates for patients with insurance. There are some places though that do, and it tends to be small/medium size specialty practices (think orthopedics, ophthalmology, radiology) in forward thinking places (Seattle,…

I had a contribution drafted, but lost it all. In summary:

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> One reason they may not want to give you an estimate is because depending on what happens during your visit/procedure, the codes that get billed could change quite a bit. Because of this their initial estimate could be wildly different.

This is a common excuse given by industry. Its also BS. I want to put it out there so people know. Would you accept if an airline tried to charge you extra if because of weather they served you extra food? Or took you to a different airport ? No. https://surgerycenterok.com/ has a price on every procedure. It never changes. How? Because they know that price changes are related to a problem doctor. You can reliably predict a problem doctor due to (a) surprise coding and (b) complications. Good doctors (and pilots) know their cases and plan accordingly.

>>>>>> Another reason they may not want to give you an estimate is because they have no idea.

This is true. They don't know because no one has bothered to translate a scheduled case into specific CPTs and/or looked up rates rates with insurer. So someone dropped the ball.

>>>>>>>>>I often see comments on hackernews along the lines of "it's just a fee schedule, how hard is it to put it in a database.

Actually, you are misinformed here. The vast majority of contracts for independent providers are simple affairs that are % of medicare rates. The only excuse they have for not putting those % rates in the open is that they have no incentive to do so. But its lazy. They could say to patients "our contract with X payor is % of medicare" and then even the patient could figure it out. They don't even do that. And patients suffer as a result. ASC and Hospitals have no excuse. Even with complex contracts, they have massive staff that can do the work.

>>>>>>>>..Another reason they may not want to give you an estimate is because it's not straightforward to verify your insurance.It may have bad data on what is covered vs not covered, what your deductible, coinsurance, etc are so given all this data is kind of unreliable then giving an estimate becomes pretty unreliable.

In my experience, some of the data fields are reliably accurate. For the rest, we are actually working on a solution. But let's not make perfect the enemy of the good. Its not hard to caveat a response like:

"Assuming all your procedures are covered by your plan, based on your remaining deductible of X and coinsurance of Y, your patient responsibility for this procedure is Z" Its not rocket science. I do it all the time myself.

Re: How much health insurers pay for almost everything is about to go public

#333

Thanks again President Trump!

I'll admit, this is one thing, perhaps literally the only thing, he did that I think is excellent for individual Americans.

Trump is a troll, but when he was president, he did his job like all presidents before him.

I actually don't think the US president has that much power in practice. After considering the constitution, expert studies, standard procedures, state finances, and public opinion, for most decisions, the president doesn't have much choice. He will however choose how it is presented: make a show out of it or do it discreetly, take full credit or present it as somewhat forced, present a different aspect of it, etc...

In big democracies, heads of state are mostly the face of the country, but most work happen behind the scenes. Even in less democratic major countries (Russia, China,...) there is a limit on what the ruler can do. And if you are asking, I don't think that the Ukraine war is Putin's war, he played a role, but I think it is the almost unavoidable result of decades of tension and complex politics between Russia and the West.

Re: How much health insurers pay for almost everything is about to go public

#334
post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which price and who determines it?

The hospital determines a price and offers it to all comers. Most businesses work that way.

The only business that works that way is retail. And even then most will negotiate on bulk orders. Almost everyone else will have a price list they negotiate off of.

Re: How much health insurers pay for almost everything is about to go public

#335
post #333

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll admit, this is one thing, perhaps literally the only thing, he did that I think is excellent for individual Americans.

Trump is a troll, but when he was president, he did his job like all presidents before him. I actually don't think the US president has that much power in practice. After considering the constitution, expert studies, standard procedures, state finances, and public opinion, for most decisions, the president doesn't have much choice. He will however choose how it is presented: make a show out of it or do it discreetly,…

> I actually don't think the US president has that much power in practice.

Completely agree. As the world gets larger and more interconnected/free, the power any one man can have decreases.

Re: How much health insurers pay for almost everything is about to go public

#336
post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or we can have one network every doctor is in, and the state pays for everything. All doctors are independent contractors to the state. Everything is paid for. There's one price for everything. Everyone is covered. All this garbage just disappears. Then there's one nice fee schedule like this, with all the prices on it, but it doesn't even matter, unless you're a physician doing your billing. [1] [edit] As you can se…

I suspect we could do decently by requiring insurance to purely reimburse the patient (possibly without the patient needing to pay first). If an insurer pays up to $1k for an MRI, and a hospital charges $15k but an outpatient imaging center charges $700, there will be a strong incentive for patients to stop using the hospital’s MRI. Combining this with an auto-service requirement for a binding estimate before service…

Most people can't afford $500 in America.

Re: How much health insurers pay for almost everything is about to go public

#337
post #259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most healthcare providers are happy to accept cash payments from patients. You can sometimes even negotiate a discount. If you have a medical plan subject to the Affordable Care Act then most preventive care is already fully covered at no cost to the patient. https://www.healthcare.gov/coverage/preventive-care-benefits...

> most preventive care is already fully covered at no cost to the patient. Sigh. Someone has to pay and that someone is all of us. Health insurance plays on the fallacy most individuals have that they will somehow beat the system and receive more services than they pay for. So, it becomes a race to use as much as possible. Over prescribed meds for the sexy new illness you think you might have after seeing that commer…

I don't agree that this is "precisely" why insurance and care is so expensive. Other countries do this just fine. The main reason that it's so expensive in the US is because we have for-profit insurance companies whos interests are diametrically opposed to the interests of the patient. They want to make as much money as possible, and patients want to pay as little as possible.

Re: How much health insurers pay for almost everything is about to go public

#338

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, it works for routine stuff, but don't try to pay cash for abdominal surgery. You will get a very terrible, high price. After all, it's agree to our low price or die of appendicitis.

Not really. Its a matter of knowing where to find the place that can treat you. For example, this surgery clinic will treat your appendicitis for less than the average patient's deductible + coinsurance. I'm including the flight + hotel stay in that estimate. https://surgerycenterok.com/pricing/appendectomy-laparoscopi... The problem is how you go about finding this information. Most ASC's and even independent doctor…

"Its a matter of knowing where to find the place that can treat you." This is fine if you can plan in advance and have the funds to travel, but what if you can't? What if you're in a car accident, or have a heart attack? You can't shop around when your guts are spilling out on the asphalt.

Re: How much health insurers pay for almost everything is about to go public

#339
post #300

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Insurers are incentivized to pay higher prices for claims. The Affordable Care Act enforced that insurance companies must have at least an 80% "medical loss ratio." Meaning that insurance companies must make at least 80% of their total spend on actually paying out medical claims. This law was put into place because insurance companies would spend huge amounts of money on advertising and giving execs bonuses, all paid…

Kind of but not really. Insurers compete for customers, typically corporations buying group plans. My employer switched insurers all the time to get the same or better coverage at a lower price.

Competition is scarce. Hospitals and providers don't take all insurances, based on backroom shady deals. Depending on location, there often isn't much choice for insurers. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1450072/

Insurance policies have dozens of knobs they can turn to charge your more while claiming it's a lower price. Premiums, copays, coinsurance, deductibles, out of pocket maximums, in network benefits, out of network benefits, and all of that for individual vs family. It's all a scam.

Re: How much health insurers pay for almost everything is about to go public

#340

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Insurers are incentivized to pay higher prices for claims. The Affordable Care Act enforced that insurance companies must have at least an 80% "medical loss ratio." Meaning that insurance companies must make at least 80% of their total spend on actually paying out medical claims. This law was put into place because insurance companies would spend huge amounts of money on advertising and giving execs bonuses, all paid…

>The Affordable Care Act introduced the newer perverse incentive of insurance companies tolerating higher prices. Because if you can only pay your execs bonuses based on 20% of your total spend, insurance companies can pay execs more if the underlying claims they're paying cost more. 20% of a $1,000 MRI isn't as juicy to your C levels as 20% of a $10,000 MRI. If this perverse incentive were true, then you would expec…

From your second link, except in the last year, healthcare spend has been outpacing inflation by more than 2 to 1. The economics of scale are backwards in healthcare, I find that perverse.

UnitedHealth total comp have been rising for C levels, except the CEO who recently left, who stayed around 17mil. https://www.salary.com/tools/executive-compensation-calculat...

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