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What do lawyers do?

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61–70 of 156 posts

Re: What do lawyers do?

#61
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think we are writing past each other. The article talks about lawyers being good communicators and being prepared, the implication being for court to argue in front of a judge. This is what I am saying is a tiny, infinitesimally small portion of the legal profession as a whole. You changed the topic to be “with an eventual audience of a courtroom and a judge in mind”, which I don’t disagree with. This needs to be t…

No, there was no change in topic, merely a correction to an incorrect absolute statement: “the vast majority of what lawyers do has nothing to do with judges.” To say it has nothing to do with judges is the overstep. Those who practice know that the end-state of almost all legal analysis is “what would the judge say?” and it’s laughable to think that the prototypical lawyer doesn’t actively consider how their work wi…

Ok, I’ve added a clarifying statement. The word “nothing” in my post overstated the case based on my reading of the post with respect to communication and preparation for court.

Re: What do lawyers do?

#62

“I was never ruined but twice: once when I lost a lawsuit, and once when I won one.” ― Voltaire Where US civil litigation (disputes) are concerned, a good lawyer looks to end the dispute before the cost of litigation approaches the value of the dispute. Once might argue the feature and bug of US tort law is the litigation becomes a third party in the case, against whom both sides must fight, hopefully finding a commo…

>“I was never ruined but twice: once when I lost a lawsuit, and once when I won one.”

Says the man that made his fortune by winning a lawsuit when he rigged the lottery.

Re: What do lawyers do?

#63
post #38

Great analysis. Even though we see the warts all of the time, I'm so incredibly impressed by "law," and I didn't get to this point until I was well out of law school. Why I'm impressed is how well the law holds itself together in the face of the massive weight of influences that have every reason in the world to try to corrupt it. It's just all too easy to speculate (or read historically) how easy it is to corrupt th…

My experience is that the system is rife with incompetence and convenient inconsistencies.

Re: What do lawyers do?

#64
Science and Law are the twin pillars of modern civilization - from a theoretical point of view. The approaches are fundamentally different - for example, a court will generally not throw up its hands in despair and say "we can't come to a conclusion on this as we don't have the experimental data yet, maybe in a few decades" - hence the practice of indefinite detention without trial, or indefinite suspension of a civil case - is not legally sound (Gitmo ahem). On the other hand, science has little to say about moral decisions, it simply reports on factual matters. For example, cannibalism is abhored by the legal system but as long as you don't consume the brains & nervous tissue (prion diseases etc.), and cook it thoroughly, flesh is basically flesh, say the scientists. Hence it can be rather unwise to let scientists make moral decisions (John von Neumann wanting to surprise-nuke the Soviet Union and slaughter a hundred million people is a notable example, as is Mengele's interest in acquiring human subjects for medical experimentation), and equally unwise to let lawyers make decisions about scientific issues such as the role of fossil fuels in global warming, or the safety and efficacy of vaccines (politicians who were shady lawyers in their past lives controlling the budgets of federal science-funding agencies comes to mind as a negative example).

The practice of science and law is, in contrast to the theoretical ideal, woefully corrupt, biased and untrustworthy in our modern world. Finding a lawyer or scientist capable of explaining complex topics in their domain without trying to manipulate things for their own personal benefit is a fairly difficult process, much like sifting dirt to find gems. The fact is, science and law requires intelligent individuals, but intelligence without any self-consistent moral code easily leads to the clever self-serving manipulator and con artist types.

Any business or government entity that needs to hire scientists and lawyers to make progress has their work cut out for them, that's for sure - assuming they want accurate reports, and aren't just trying to get 'reputable experts' on board who will tell the public that toxic waste is good for your health, or to find shady lawyers who will help hide the profits in offshore tax havens.

Re: What do lawyers do?

#65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The repeal of Roe v Wade was a gut punch for me, but I’ve known it was entirely possible for quite a long time. Plus some states have had trigger laws forever so that’s hardly surprising. Yes, there will be instability, but it’s not the chaotic out-of-the-blue kind, unless you’re wilfully ignorant of the anti abortion movement, or extremely naive to the motivations of that bloc.

As a slight tangent since you seem to be knowledgeable: what is the motivation of the anti abortion bloc? I feel that godliness and a true care for life yet unborn is not it, because the bloc does not exhibit these qualities in many other areas...

A different framing can be revealing. For some years the state in the US with the lowest number of abortions per capita was Massachusetts where abortions are not only readily available but also essentially free. The big difference is that sex education and contraception are pervasively available. In the areas that support a ban on abortions sex education and contraception have limited availability. Instead people are supposed to abstain until they commit to a partner for procreation. Abstinence is unrealistic, so this results in youthful sexual experimentation starting families. There are effectively two different ways of living here with abortion being linked to sex education and contraception and how ideas about how families should be formed and pregnancies planned or not.

Re: What do lawyers do?

#66
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a slight tangent since you seem to be knowledgeable: what is the motivation of the anti abortion bloc? I feel that godliness and a true care for life yet unborn is not it, because the bloc does not exhibit these qualities in many other areas...

Eh, I do think it's being repulsed at the idea of killin' babies. Combined with not weighting the value of the choices of women or the impact on them or their bodies very high. Look, uh, abortion is kinda a yucky thing. There's not some bright-line moment of change and investiture with consciousness and being that happens at the moment of birth. It's only when you decide the choices and bodily autonomy of the adult w…

and "the gloves are off". If the entire government just spent 2 years justifying the coerced vaccination of the masses - all thought bodily autonomy thrown out for the greater good? Sure the Rightwingers are happy to play that game as well.

Re: What do lawyers do?

#67

I'm not a lawyer, but this seems far too narrow, and focused on trial lawyers. For instance, what about corporate lawyers writing up merger agreements? Or estate lawyers helping to plan for after death? Or family lawyers helping people through divorce? Statutes obviously matter in those cases, in the sense that they always matter, but often aren't the main focus. Even criminal stuff doesn't usually go to trial, and i…

You and I appear to be understanding the OP in entirely different ways.

The value of a lawyer is not in understanding statutes. It is in understanding the system, and being able to make predictions based on that understanding.

From the article: >> Sure, lawyers are (sometimes) good communicators who are (sometimes) well-prepared, but the real value proposition they offer is prediction.

Prediction matters in M&A, it matters in estate plans, it matters in divorce litigation. How can you properly prepare a merger without anticipating the things that might go wrong? How can you negotiate a cost-effective divorce settlement if you have no idea how the case will go? How can you plan for, well, what happens after your death, if you can't predict how the financials will play out?

Re: What do lawyers do?

#69
> Good lawyers can predict what the judge will do, and can write and say things to maximise the odds of the judge doing what you want him to do.

And before you go to court, good lawyers and legal advisers look at a case also from the angle of what a judge would ultimately consider. So even if there's no judge around and nobody plans to have a judge around to solve the problem at hand, there's always the 'shadow of the law'.

> Law is an impressionistic business, much less scientific than macroeconomics or inflation management, more akin to craft than science.

When I went to law school, one of the professors in the first year told us "law is a prescriptive science, not a descriptive science". That was the moment I could not take it seriously anymore, or the moment from when on I had to take it more seriously. Whatever 'serious' might mean in this case. I still don't have a final answer for myself.

Re: What do lawyers do?

#70
post #22

I believe Law is one of the fundamental industries of civilization, along with Textiles, War, Food, Medicine, and Shelter. Without a way for disputes to be settled in a (theoretically) predictable and well-documented manner, the other "fundamental industries" will suffer output and availability problems.

You forgot entertainment and accounting.

Also forgot midwifing, babysitting, and education. No professional lives forever, so a civilization must constantly grow and train replacements.
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