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What do lawyers do?

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Re: What do lawyers do?

#51
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Incorrect, especially the statement that “the vast majority of what lawyers do has nothing to do with judges. It has to do with drafting contracts and interpreting legislation and legal precedent.” I think you’re confusing arbitration or litigation as the aspects of lawyering which involve judges. In fact, just about all actions undertaken by lawyers are with an eventual audience of a courtroom and a judge in mind. Y…

I think we are writing past each other. The article talks about lawyers being good communicators and being prepared, the implication being for court to argue in front of a judge. This is what I am saying is a tiny, infinitesimally small portion of the legal profession as a whole. You changed the topic to be “with an eventual audience of a courtroom and a judge in mind”, which I don’t disagree with. This needs to be t…

No, there was no change in topic, merely a correction to an incorrect absolute statement: “the vast majority of what lawyers do has nothing to do with judges.”

To say it has nothing to do with judges is the overstep. Those who practice know that the end-state of almost all legal analysis is “what would the judge say?” and it’s laughable to think that the prototypical lawyer doesn’t actively consider how their work will be interpreted by legal authorities.

As a layperson, you saw the commentary about communication and preparedness and you thought this was an article about professional decorum and skillsets. It is not: the author saved the punchline for the end, and tied his observations about the practice of law, jurisdictional incongruities, and legal culture under the deft umbrella of legal realism and its affects on the above. How does it affect or undermine lawyers’ interpretation of the law? How do judges weigh the various influences that impact their decision making? And, all this together, what kind of legal culture is created from the variance of these actors and factors?

But hey, let’s make this fun. You list an area of law that does not interact in any way with judges or jurisprudence, and I’ll respond appropriately.

Re: What do lawyers do?

#52
post #22

I believe Law is one of the fundamental industries of civilization, along with Textiles, War, Food, Medicine, and Shelter. Without a way for disputes to be settled in a (theoretically) predictable and well-documented manner, the other "fundamental industries" will suffer output and availability problems.

You forgot entertainment and accounting.

Re: What do lawyers do?

#54

the jury has absolute power in a courtroom. The judge only conducts.

> the judge only conducts

Continuing with your metaphor, the symphony conductor "only conducts" -- he or she doesn't play the instruments.

The judge sustains or overrules objections. They decide what topics may be presented at all via the Motions in Limine [1] which are incredibly important. And much more.

[1] https://legaldictionary.net/motion-in-limine/

Re: What do lawyers do?

#55
“I was never ruined but twice: once when I lost a lawsuit, and once when I won one.”

― Voltaire

Where US civil litigation (disputes) are concerned, a good lawyer looks to end the dispute before the cost of litigation approaches the value of the dispute. Once might argue the feature and bug of US tort law is the litigation becomes a third party in the case, against whom both sides must fight, hopefully finding a common enemy in its cost. If the cost is not enough to settle the dispute, you can add the unpredictability of judges and juries who on any given day can invert the obvious, wrecking a 'winnable' case.

A great lawyer, as opposed to a good one, keeps your fees down as you heads to trial against an opponent with seemingly unlimited money and appetite for litigation. They accomplish this by focusing on the core dispute and ignoring ancillary matters, often making their client (wrongly) question how committed they are to their case.

In sum, a good lawyer manages their client (always pushing internally for settlement), works to keep fees down until discovery closes, sows doubt in the other's sides confidence, establishes credibility with the Judge, and shows up meticulously prepared for trial.

As a thought exercise, imagine how hard all this is to do when you dislike your client, your managing partner is on you to increase billings, your kids need braces, and you're hoping to save a few bucks for retirement and an escape from a profession filled with bad lawyers.

Re: What do lawyers do?

#56
What TV has taught me lawyers do: they have a new case every week that goes to trial that week. The case is always won by evidence discovered during the trial, or by testimony of a surprise witness, or an impassioned speech during closing arguments. And the judgement is rendered right there at the end of the trial.

Re: What do lawyers do?

#57
post #14

> In societies somewhere in between, with a flawed rule of law, like India, these predictions are impossibly hard to make. I think this is overselling the stability of the judicial process in the UK, US and other countries with a strong grounding in the rule of law. Without getting to political, sometimes judicial controversies spring up in the US. The issue is there are centuries of norms to fall back on. India does…

the sheer number of mindnumbing number of open cases in indian judiciary is the problem.

Here are a couple of livestreams of high courts in india https://www.youtube.com/c/BlackGownlaw https://www.youtube.com/c/GujaratHighCourtLive/videos

you can easily find courts right now hearing cases from 20-30 years ago meaning all that time, the case has been delayed for some reason or the other.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-1qOtI9zv8

here is a hearing for a person who has been incarcerated for 4 years and no charges have been filed against him. the court granted him bail but it only took the court 4 years to do so.

edit: that said, it is simply not a question of increasing the number of courts because apparently it costs milions and millions to set up a single courtroom.

things have definitely improved in the last decades as arbitration is given preference, there is things like "lok adalats" where small cases are heard in a quick succession so that case loads are reduced.

Re: What do lawyers do?

#58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I started handling a business, I had stumbled upon several problems dealing with our accounting firm (big 4). I caught several mistakes the people they assigned to our account made (such as including VAT in an six figure invoice that was exempted in a particular case. It almost seems they were working for the revenue service). Worse, once they made a mistake registering a new employee for social security, then s…

have you thought about trying local small accounting firms/law firms for your taxes as opposed to monolith "big 4?" big 4 people will have the best paid execs and partners but the leg work is made to be done by interns and stuff. On the other hand, in a small firm, its all hands on deck to finish/work on a case. i am a lawyer/accountant in india handling business/litigation of businesses. as a representative of the s…

>have you thought about trying local small accounting firms/law firms for your taxes as opposed to monolith "big 4?"

Yes, and we did. On several instances, we had silly problems like the accountant going to vacation right before tax deadline, other frustrations like communication problems.

>big 4 people will have the best paid execs and partners but the leg work is made to be done by interns and stuff. On the other hand, in a small firm, its all hands on deck to finish/work on a case.

That was one clause in the agreement as I said. Our account was to be handled by seasoned people and we had put in the contract that they had to answer our questions. Granted, they don't always know what to do, but you're not left hanging, but regulations here are another story.

>* smaller boutique firms, i would suggest you look up your local firms first as they are more inclined to give more attention and care to your work*

Done that. It's good advice. Maybe for another company but we needed our accounting to be tight given the direction we wanted to go, and the cost of doing so was almost the same as going with a smaller accounting practice.

Re: What do lawyers do?

#60
I'm not a lawyer, but this seems far too narrow, and focused on trial lawyers.

For instance, what about corporate lawyers writing up merger agreements? Or estate lawyers helping to plan for after death? Or family lawyers helping people through divorce?

Statutes obviously matter in those cases, in the sense that they always matter, but often aren't the main focus.

Even criminal stuff doesn't usually go to trial, and it's not because of some amazing insight in reading statutes. It's because often, the criminal is obviously guilty (or has no capacity to express why they are innocent) and it's just a negotiation over the terms of a guilty plea. Part of that is knowing the statute, but most is just knowing what other plea deals have been reached in similar cases recently.

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